Red Camera Losers

[Ramesh Jai]

There are situations where I give my gear and my services for free - mostly where I can learn by just being on set seeing how other people work.

I think every individual has the right to decide how much he/she charges for gear/services. There is no justification needed. Let's just keep working. :Angel_anim:

 

[Peter Hodgins]

look ill hire you as a dp and you bring your gear and ill pay you 300 bucks/day..
but guess what.. next time im paying you 300 bucks... then the next time im paying you 300 bucks.. then the next time.. so on

Hey, hold off, stop the presses, I'll do it for $250.

 

[Rick Darge]

This is what I don't get...guys get into this business for the love of the craft but before long, it becomes about the money and what rate they think they deserve. Not saying people should take advantage but comeon, you're still doing a job others would love to do, even if they got paid less than you.

I don't even know where to start.....

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Matthew,

I understand every point you are bringing up, but honestly it sucks. I'm with Richard on this and everyone else.

There have been plenty of times where I've had to do a few favors for some producers, not even huge named ones. This was AFTER I gave them my full package price with me coming along. I strive for high quality work and nothing less, my whole business is based off RED production and post-production. If I'm not on set and they just rent out my camera, chances are they are going to make the footage look like shit. It's not hard to expose the R1 incorrectly, it's not hard to give it a terrible cc grade, it's also not hard to mess up the settings on it.

When producers hire me, they hire experience and quality, not some douchebag who got his camera last week, has maybe turned it on once, doesn't know the significance of each camera build or the problems that occur in each build, and doesn't know which way a friggin RED arm attaches to the camera handle (this is no joke, I've seen all of this).

After my full package rental, these producers have then told me "this is a lower budget shoot", which to them I think "then get another camera". I'm not reducing my rate because your client couldn't the fund the shoot for an experienced and full RED package. Shoot with the HVX and a letus adaptor. I'd lose money as a business if I reduce my rate more than 25%, which is quite fair if you ask me.

So you can talk about steady work, for the love of the craft, etc. as much as you want, but having a RED doesn't automatically make you an expert. Most of us on these boards have had the cameras for well over a year. We've beta tested builds, we've seen RDC grow out of a small garage at Oakley to their HQ now. I bet a lot of guys who whore their RED packages out don't know half this stuff. To me, that isn't acceptable. If I was a producer I would pay a higher fee feeling confident that that individual or company knows their shit.

If the next shoot comes around and I feel they didn't know their shit on the last shoot, and give them the reasons WHY I think I deserve a lesser fee, then so be it. But to those guys that say $199/day or week, well they got something coming. It'll catch up to them shortly and they'll realize they can't run a legitimate RED production and post-production business for such an insignificant amount.

 

[Rob Gardner]

I don't know what all this whining is about. There will always be cheap producers. There will always be people who, when you express concerns about production quality and budget for the end user or client, will say "It's already too good for them". If you don't want to work on those jobs, just say no.

There will always be friends or people of good faith who are trying to do personal work and will ask you to do them a favor. If the personal connections make it worth it, or the experience, or if there is art in the project and you want to be a part of it—or if you are starving and the bank is taking your house away, just say yes.

If other people are giving their gear away for nothing, there is nothing you can do about it except to keep to your own standards and financial realities and try to keep your self respect intact. Keeping your self-respect intact is often hard enough in this business as it is.

There is always somebody willing to do the job cheaper, whether it is a rental, a dop job or a production job. Being caught up in a race to the bottom is a losers game imho, but sometimes there are reasons to do it.

 

[Tom Lowe]

This is a really long conversation just to say one thing: The MARKET will sort it out. The market is all powerful.

If this dude is renting his R1 package $200 a weekend, he is either a) crap and will ruin the projects he is on, or b) great and will soon be charging the going rate.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

All true, and I work for free more than most I'm guessing, about 50% of what I shoot.

But it's all about doing the things you love for cheap or free, not bowing to slimy producers trying to make us believe we are only worth $300 including our gear.

Yes this is what it comes down to... yes I will bring my 100k + gear out to work for free.. but why should I empower some A-Hole or some idiot that thinks he knows what he's doing and doesn't have a clue about cinematography? Everyday I meet people with an identity crises that honestly just want access to the gear to start their new identities. I've even met people that wanted to print business cards so they can work my equipment. I call them the networkers...people that know how to lay tracks but have no trains.

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

This is a really long conversation just to say one thing: The MARKET will sort it out. The market is all powerful.

Tomis right, the market will sort it out. Only when it does, it could determine that you need to lower your rate instead of them needing to raise their's. It is a service buyers market, not a service sellers market. In this economy, people will pay only what they're going to. If you don't want to accept the offer because you're too good for it, you might find yourself losing more money in the long run. Any priactical DP will tell you that working is always better than not working. Self-respect has never been a part of this industry, I don't know where you think it ever was.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Self-respect has never been a part of this industry, I don't know where you think it ever was.

Speak for yourself. Vittotio Storaro walked off a job when he was just married with a young baby.. he walked off the job due to artistic differences. That is self-respect.... you can whore out yourself all you want.

 

[Jamison Stark]

...not some douchebag who got his camera last week ... and doesn't know which way a friggin RED arm attaches to the camera handle

I just got my camera and I was wondering this very thing. Most of this "pro" gear I've been purchasing comes without instructions. I'm sure there must be some logic to which end goes on the camera and which end connects to the monitor but I haven't figured it out yet. Don't even get me started on how long it took me to figure out what all the thumb screws on my MB-28 are for.

We all start somewhere. It doesn't make us douchebags. Perhaps your anger is better directed at Mr. Jannard for democratizing cinema in the first place.

Peace.

P.S. - Seriously though, which way does the arm attach?

 

[Rick Darge]

Tomis right, the market will sort it out. Only when it does, it could determine that you need to lower your rate instead of them needing to raise their's. It is a service buyers market, not a service sellers market. In this economy, people will pay only what they're going to. If you don't want to accept the offer because you're too good for it, you might find yourself losing more money in the long run. Any priactical DP will tell you that working is always better than not working. Self-respect has never been a part of this industry, I don't know where you think it ever was.

Why do I get the feeling that you're THE guy renting out his Red package for a free front lawn mowing?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Why do I get the feeling that you're THE guy renting out his Red package for a free front lawn mowing?

Even worse he doesn't own a RED. It's easy for a non owner admittedly with no self-respect propose that we invested owners whore ourselves out.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Self-respect has never been a part of this industry, I don't know where you think it ever was.

I don't know what to say to this... :emote_whack:

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I don't know what to say to this... :emote_whack:

Look at his prior posts and you will see his trollish ways. Comes across has a RED hater to me.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We all start somewhere. It doesn't make us douchebags. Perhaps your anger is better directed at Mr. Jannard for democratizing cinema in the first place.

Hehe.. There's a difference between noobs and douchebags. You don't seem the douchebag type.

P.S. - Seriously though, which way does the arm attach?

However it works for you, that's the beauty of how all this stuff works. I personally like to connect my LCD via a 9" arm that is threaded onto a bogen nanoclamp. The clamp can grip any common rod size, so it's easy to mount it on any side of the camera, high or low and slide it along a rod to where you want it. Just keep in mind that if there was only one right way to do it, the camera would come pre-configured that way. And if it feels awkward when you use it, there's probably a better way to do it.

In the past 17 months I've owned my RED, I've cobbled together tons of different configurations or solutions to fit whatever my needs were at the time. And cut up a bunch of steel and aluminum along the way. Just recently made a nice chunk of aluminum to mount my RED, or any other camera that attaches to an Arri dovetail) on its side on my tripod. Shooting 4.5K in portrait mode is friggin cool. Especially shooting tall buildings and the like with a wide lens like the Tokina 11-16.

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Look at his prior posts and you will see his trollish ways. Comes across has a RED hater to me.

I don't hate the RED...I don't hate any inanimate object for that matter as it's just silly. I'm sorry that it is considered trollish to bring up valid arguments about work vs. non-work. That is the problem with this forum...it suffers from group-think. That usually happens with fanboy sites like this. If I was such a RED hater, why did my previous post give it regard by saying "Even a RED with a 35mm still lense would outdue a DVX100" by a skilled operator. I realize that the RED is a big deal camera for the digital shooters of the world, I have never denied that, even on C.com where I am generally considered by ya'll to be a "RED basher."

As far as self-respect, I really don't think it's "whoring yourself out" to not consider your self-respect as prime importance. For any picture to get made, it takes collaboration and compromise from every person involved. If everyone's going around concerned about their own rights and feelings, a picture will never get made. There is a chain of command and that should be respected whether you like it or not. If you don't "respect" that, maybe you shouldn't be in this business.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

even on C.com where I am generally considered by ya'll to be a "RED basher."

So you are admitting to being generally known as a... RED Basher? Well its always awesome to have industry experts such as yourself come and state your opinions here... whorish/trollish as they maybe.

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

This site isn't a fanboy site. It's an informational site, where people gather to learn about RED, new products, talk about the industry, request for products, etc.

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

So you are admitting to being generally known as a... RED Basher?

Of course some say that. Some consider any legitimate critique of the RED to be bashing. I have never quite understood the concept of being a camera fanboy anyhow. David Mullen even stated before that he chose to never own a camera and therefore he never got attached to any one camera at that level.

I do not critique RED any harsher than I would any other digital or film camera. I just believe, like those other cameras, that there is no one perfect tool for every job. I tend to agree with Mullen's idea that it is better to not own a camera as a DP, therefore, you can always assure you have the best tool for the job (unless you're going to own every camera to choose from!)

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Well I'll never understand a hater troll that goes out of his way to post his personal opinions inexperienced as they may be.