RED 8K S35

[Mendes Nabil]

Everybody is talking about pixels and resolution, can we talk about :

-Color science

-Texture

-Highlight rolloff

-Dynamic range

?

Just for a minute guys, because whatever the resolution and the crop will be, "it will be great"..

 

[Mike Nagel]

fantastic news and very excited to see the new color science... low light and DR is all fine, color accuracy would be my top priority...

and this is a great opportunity to introduce the RPP v2s... 200lp/mm, cover 8K VV.... ;-)

 

[Daniel Reed]

It just dawned on me.

Too many folks ordering,
near impossible catch-up queues.

Jarred:
Fuck, we raised the price on Raven and there is still no end to purchase demand... what to do?

Jim:
Tease the new sensor tech.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It just dawned on me.

Too many folks ordering,
near impossible catch-up queues.

Jarred:
Fuck, we raised the price on Raven and there is still no end to purchase demand... what to do?

Jim:
Tease the new sensor tech.

The good about this is that we get a much more logic resolution to our formats, the bad part of this is that it's not especially good to tease a new sensor while Weapons aren't able to meet the demands yet. What happens to those waiting? Will they be scratching their heads about how up to date their camera will be when they receive it? For those waiting on the 8K, would they feel it might be better to just skip it, use 6K and then jump onto Helium?
A big reason why people want the 8K is to be able to meet 8K demands, but if they get 8K, 10K or 13K with Helium, why bother paying for a mid step when 8K as a delivery format probably won't be ready before Helium is out.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Helium = more light

Guess :
+) Bayer sensor coating of pixels : Higher rejection of out of band colour frequencies = Higher Choma SNR
+) OLPF : Less work to do, less optical loss = Higher Luma SNR
+) Increase in sensitivity of G and B with respect to R = Higher Brightness before R clips = Higher DR
+) If SNR increases by 6dB (over same area) -> could this be the basis a future HFR sensor?

AJ

You'd think that a color filter that cuts more unwanted frequencies is going to be denser, which may improve chroma but would reduce sensitivity.

And I've never heard that a weaker OLPF allows more light to pass through since it mainly just softens high frequency detail.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You'd think that a color filter that cuts more unwanted frequencies is going to be denser, which may improve chroma but would reduce sensitivity.

And I've never heard that a weaker OLPF allows more light to pass through since it mainly just softens high frequency detail.

Which is why the monochrome is better at higher ISOs and at details I guess?

 

[Antony Newman]

There have been many advances in optics that could come into play eg:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?144346-The-next-gen-sensor&p=1629439#post1629439
+) That can increase photon absorption ten fold in a chosen frequency band.
+) Use optical tuning that causes a band-pass style response.
+) New dopants available frequency absorption characteristics (and others with Indium in nano structured quantum wells)

As many advances have come into play since Helium was trademarked - it is rampant speculation on my part guessing which tech Red might be using...

AJ

You'd think that a color filter that cuts more unwanted frequencies is going to be denser, which may improve chroma but would reduce sensitivity.

And I've never heard that a weaker OLPF allows more light to pass through since it mainly just softens high frequency detail.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

That breakthrough was reported in May this year and you think that Red has already made a sensor using it?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Good to see they are following the 4 years upgrade plan for sensor. As of today s35 8k is not what I need I would need academy aperture though.

Pat

 

[Stacey Spears]

the bad part of this is that it's not especially good to tease a new sensor while Weapons aren't able to meet the demands yet. What happens to those waiting?... For those waiting on the 8K, would they feel it might be better to just skip it, use 6K and then jump onto Helium?

If Red follows history, then those who already have their camera will probably be ahead in line for the next gen sensor. To a point at least. The question is will all Red cameras have the option of upgrading to the next gen sensor. I assume so, but who knows if it will make economic sense for the lowest price cameras. The sensor upgrade price has been around $10k. Of course a smaller cut will probably produce higher yields. If 8K is S35 in size, you can't go too much smaller can you? 16mm? Thinking of the Raven cameras.

As one of those waiting for the 8K VV, I don't currently have any plans to skip it. Even knowing there is new sensor tech, I am still super excited about 8K VV. I want the larger sensor as I like the visual qualities it brings. As of now, we don't really have an announcement. It does look like they have working cameras if the white Weapon is indeed Helium. Even when Helium does come, I won't want to step down in physical size of the sensor. I hope the upgrade path for those with 8K VV is a 10+K VV Helium.

You'd think that a color filter that cuts more unwanted frequencies is going to be denser, which may improve chroma but would reduce sensitivity.

That is sort of what we have with the STH OLPF. The red channel is noisier because it is filtered more than the other OLPFs. There is a sharpness hit with STH, noisier red channel, but people seem to like the quality of skin tones with it.

Cell phones are leading the sensor tech improvements since they have to cram a lot of resolution into such a small space. Cross-talk and sensitivity are some of the issues they have had to overcome.

Everybody is talking about pixels and resolution, can we talk about :

-Color science

Color science is always improving. Sometimes it seems that people think it has stopped. Panavision should be proof that it continues to advance. I am sure Red has their own improvements coming too. With more cameras in the field (Raven) they are getting more feedback and can make further improvements.

Which is why the monochrome is better at higher ISOs and at details I guess?

With a monochrome, you get true resolution since there is no debayer process to create red, green and blue pixels from the subsampled CMOS pixels and color filter array.

If this can be matched with the MgW, then it will be EXTRAORDINARY FABULOUS!

It will probably need the same electronics in CF. It is the number of pixels processed, not the psychical size of the sensor. Maybe it is a lower power sensor though, that would be cool.

what would be amazing if you could change from 8k to 6k to 4k to 2k and still be using the exact same full frame s35 sensor, no cropping,
but using smaller resolutions to get higher frame rates and lower compression.

Higher frame rates are a limitation of the sensor's vertical resolution. At least with current and past Red sensors. While you might be able to get 4K from 8K using full sensor, that 4k would not increase frame rates like a cropped 4K would since you are still using the full 8K vertical sensor resolution. And as already pointed out, you would no longer be able to record raw either.

I look forward to the new sensor tech. Like Dragon, Helium will probably take some time to achieve its full potential. Already having working cameras is good sign though.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Yes, but it also might mean less sensitivity... which is why it's going to be about noise management. The new Sony A7RII, for example, has a lot of pixels but has kept the noise down, so it can be used at fairly high ISO settings (but not as high as the 12MP Sony A7S...)

Absolutely!

8K S35 is not gonna be as good as VV 8K, noise-wise, but at least as good or better than 6K Dragon, plus "sharper".
And there's always the Neat Video...as a last resort. :rofl:

:thumbsup:

 

[Stacey Spears]

8K S35 is not gonna be as good as VV 8K, noise-wise

We don't actually know that. If it were the same generation sensor tech, then sure. Since this is next gen sensor tech, it may be cleaner. Dragon is a smaller pixel size than MX and yet it is cleaner than MX. I would expect the same to hold true. I don't see Red taking a step back in image quality. They are a pretty smart group of people with high standards.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

We don't actually know that. If it were the same generation sensor tech, then sure. Since this is next gen sensor tech, it may be cleaner. Dragon is a smaller pixel size than MX and yet it is cleaner than MX. I would expect the same to hold true. I don't see Red taking a step back in image quality. They are a pretty smart group of people with high standards.

Of course, I too was just speculating, and that's a minimal improvement I'd expect from "next-gen" RED sensor. :biggrin:

 

[Nick Morrison]

We don't actually know that. If it were the same generation sensor tech, then sure. Since this is next gen sensor tech, it may be cleaner. Dragon is a smaller pixel size than MX and yet it is cleaner than MX. I would expect the same to hold true. I don't see Red taking a step back in image quality.]

+1

Exactly. This is next generation tech. So we shouldn't "assume" it will be worse in lowlight. It's not in RED's DNA to go backwards...

And again...Jarred's ISO was @ 3200.

That's certainly not a random choice. If the new sensor is WORSE in lowlight, that ISO would struggle to be usable....

But that's what he had it at. Which suggests...its probably pretty good at 3200 ISO.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I think the bigger question is COST.

Will we need Carbon brains to power Helium?

Or will Magnesium or Scarlet-W do? (at lower compressions? Say 8:1 or 10:1?)

By that token...will there be Raven Helium cameras? That run 4K S16 for Indie/Doc filmmakers? RED could sell a BAZILLION of these.

 

[Ted Parkes]

I am old school and love S35 and all the lens options that come with it. This is very exciting. I just hope its delivered before I retire.

 

[Scot Yount]

By that token...will there be Raven Helium cameras? That run 4K S16 for Indie/Doc filmmakers? RED could sell a BAZILLION of these.

Yes they could, if they could make them fast enough....

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Going down the Weapon route had a promise to it, to be able to be on the train ride into the future for Red. This new sensor, however long it will be before it's available, has to be available for us who upgraded to Weapon. The whole reason I upgraded was the promise of a new sensor. So I'm hoping that this will be available to us.

 

[Jaimy Soares]

Going down the Weapon route had a promise to it, to be able to be on the train ride into the future for Red. This new sensor, however long it will be before it's available, has to be available for us who upgraded to Weapon. The whole reason I upgraded was the promise of a new sensor. So I'm hoping that this will be available to us.

I don't see a reason why not. RED is just adding more flavours to the icecream truck. So when you upgrade you don't just upgrade to the next new thing, but you can probably choose to which next new thing you upgrade.

 

[Elsie N]

Hmmmm... this new sensor could be out before I get my 8k VV upgrade... I wonder if I can go straight to... nah, they will probably only upgrade cameras with 8k sensors. No 6k camera upgrades for you... 1 year!