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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Qnap raid system

Curtis boggs

Curtis boggs

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Anyone have experience with the Qnap hardware raid systems?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...enclosure.html

There's a few with thunderbolt that you can plug right into your Mac system.

Not sure about the ones with Gigabit connections if you can go strait to the gigabit port on the Mac.

Curtis
 
The link dosnt work. Re up if you can, I woulld love to see this system
 
Dont have any personal experience but all I heard is that they are supposedly very good. Thinking of getting Qnap Tb3 servers to replace our fiber san system. So curious about this as well.
 
I have the TVS-1282 TB2 system and have the TB3 version on order.

Where it really accels is where you might have a small number of editing stations that need shared storage without the cost of SAN. So you can direct-connect a Mac on Tbolt, a PC on 10 or 40 GbE, etc.

You can also pass through those connections upstream, so the qnap unit doubles as a network switch.

TVS-x82T Series
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/items_by_series.php?CA=2&ref=header
 
We are running the TVS-882ST3 as on-location storage for our DITs. Works great in the field with fast TB3 transfers and back in the office super fast transfers with the built in 10GbE to our main servers. Only thing that isn’t working as expected is the T2E (thunderbolt to Ethernet) functionality where you can use the nas as 10GbE interface for your TB3 equipped Mac.

All in all it is a solid recommendation from my side.
 
I've been running QNAPs since the Red One days, on the recommendation of my friend who runs tech for a news station. Solid recommend here too.
I run my latest QNAP box over 10Gbe SFP+ network rather than thunderbolt. Straightforward on Mac and PC. Copy speed is wacky-fast, and storage playback speed is not my bottleneck in edit.
 
QNAP's work wonderfully as shared storage systems for RED workflow. To be clear, they work perfectly, and very fast for Adobe Premiere, FCP X, Davinci Resolve, and even AVID Media
Composer (if you install Indiestor Mimiq on your editing computer). With a 1G connection, you will get 100 MB/sec bandwidth. With a 10G connection (using a thunderbolt to 10G adaptor from Promise
or Sonnet), you will get 800 MB/sec - more than enough for 6K and 8K workflow. While the TVS-871T is a wonderful inexpensive product, and it's "replacement" is the newer TVS-1282T, the best current
value from QNAP is the incredible TS-1685, which is a 12 bay, that has built in 10GbE ports, and can be expanded with 4 additional expander chassis. To be clear, if you install 10TB HGST NAS drives in a
TS-1685, after a RAID 6, you will have over 100 TB of usable storage in this tiny box, and all the editors will be able edit 4K, 6K and 8K. For multiple systems, as suggested above, get a small 10G switch from Netgear - specifically the XS708T or XS716T. Great products, easy to setup, and lifetime warrantee.

Bob Zelin
 
Do you recommend buying the 10g card from qnapp or from elsewehere. I love to have a shared storage between Mac and pc. Is there any cheaper options than TS-1685 worth buying catering only two workstation? If I push the budget I might do the TVS-871T but the TS-453BT3 would more fit the budget as I will only work halftime and take care of the kids from next week (a year).

Also is it correct that thunderbolt 3 only last half a meter and longer cables will only give you thunderbolt 2 speeds.
 
Hi Joel -
The QNAP TVS-871T, TVS-1282T, and TS-1685 all come with the dual 10Gbase-T ports built into them, for free. You don't need to second source anything - it's all FREE from QNAP.
The TVS-871T will work wonderfully for you, for your editors who are working in 4K. If you only have 2 computers, you don't even need a switch - you can just go into the two built in 10G RJ45 ports
and edit away. You must assign static IP addresses for these on two different subnets if you don't use a switch. Do not get the TS-453B. You need EIGHT DRIVES to reliably do shared storage for multiple
editors - particularly if you are doing 4K media, and ESPECIALLY if you are going to do a multiclip or multicam job. You are correct that thunderbolt 3 can only be a very short cable, and will reduce to thunderbolt 2 speeds
if you extend the cable. And you will find that thunderbolt 2 for video editing is pretty unreliable (this connection is called thunderbolt bridging). You are much better off getting a thunderbolt to 10G adaptor for your computer
(the Promise SanLink3 for thunderbolt 3 is only $299 US retail), and then you can plug directly into the 10G port on the TVS-871T, and you will have super fast speeds for 4K and 6K editing.
The price of the entire QNAP system for doing shared storage is a fraction of the price of any of your RED gear !!!!!

Bob Zelin
 
Bob Zelin said:
Hi Joel -
The QNAP TVS-871T, TVS-1282T, and TS-1685 all come with the dual 10Gbase-T ports built into them, for free. You don't need to second source anything - it's all FREE from QNAP.
The TVS-871T will work wonderfully for you, for your editors who are working in 4K. If you only have 2 computers, you don't even need a switch - you can just go into the two built in 10G RJ45 ports
and edit away. You must assign static IP addresses for these on two different subnets if you don't use a switch. Do not get the TS-453B. You need EIGHT DRIVES to reliably do shared storage for multiple
editors - particularly if you are doing 4K media, and ESPECIALLY if you are going to do a multiclip or multicam job. You are correct that thunderbolt 3 can only be a very short cable, and will reduce to thunderbolt 2 speeds
if you extend the cable. And you will find that thunderbolt 2 for video editing is pretty unreliable (this connection is called thunderbolt bridging). You are much better off getting a thunderbolt to 10G adaptor for your computer
(the Promise SanLink3 for thunderbolt 3 is only $299 US retail), and then you can plug directly into the 10G port on the TVS-871T, and you will have super fast speeds for 4K and 6K editing.
The price of the entire QNAP system for doing shared storage is a fraction of the price of any of your RED gear !!!!!

Bob Zelin
Click to expand...


Hi Bob, I tried to find a TVS-871T but they seamed to be outdated model and are not sold anymore. Atleast not by the resellers I talked to.

I have gotten the two models below as suggestions instead:
TVS-1282-i5-16G
QNAP TVS-1282-i5-16G, 8x3,5"/2,5"-platser, Intel Core i5-6500 3.2 GHz

and

TVS-1282-i7-32G
Qnap TVS-1282-i7-32G

I wonder if there would be any point to get a thunderbolt 3 to 10gbe card and put in one of these models or perhaps an extarnal adapter like these to.
Thunderbolt 3 till 10gbe
https://www.atto.com/products/thunderbolt-adapters/thunderlink/thunderbolt-to-ethernet/TLNS-3101-D00
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/twin10g-thunderbolt3.html

Is there any point to have more than 16g memory and do I get fasters speeds with a i7 instead of an i5 interms of disk speeds. Or is the i7 more if you do alot of visualization?


Your thoughts will make a large difference.
 
Bob Zelin said:
And you will find that thunderbolt 2 for video editing is pretty unreliable (this connection is called thunderbolt bridging). You are much better off getting a thunderbolt to 10G adaptor for your computer
(the Promise SanLink3 for thunderbolt 3 is only $299 US retail), and then you can plug directly into the 10G port on the TVS-871T, and you will have super fast speeds for 4K and 6K editing.
Click to expand...
HI Bob!

I've been using the QNAP 871T with thunderbolt 2 using the 'thunderbolt bridge' for about 2+ years with no problems, and never even upgraded the firmware from the original 4.2. Video editing is not my main job though - but the bits I've done I've not noticed any problems. I've not done any 6K though.

Can you describe what the problems you experienced using TB2 were? In theory TB2 has 2 x 10GB channels - so it should be just as fast as 10GBE. In reality it should be faster - transcoding TB to GBE is always going to have some overhead.

Bob Zelin said:
You need EIGHT DRIVES to reliably do shared storage for multiple editors - particularly if you are doing 4K media, and ESPECIALLY if you are going to do a multiclip or multicam job.
Click to expand...

Also curious as to what drives you are using? I'm using 4 x Western Digital WS60 (6GB) plus 1 x Samsung 850 Pro (512GB) for read cache. I was planning on upgrading the drives to 4 x 12TB IronWolf drives and therefore double my capacity, plus put in one or two more 850 Pro's so I get read and write caching (RAID 1 or 5 the cache). One of the main reasons we picked the 871T was for the caching - we figured there is not much point in having such fast interconnect (TB2/10GBE) if the disks themselves are only delivering 5GB. I guess I'm interested in your experience of going 8 x HDD vs. mine of using HDD+SSD cache, or maybe you are using 8 x SSD? We thought of using 8xSSD - but it just didn't give us enough storage - the storage density of HDD is still waaaay higher than SSD (for any price).

I haven't gotten to play with many different configs for the QNAP - but I've talked to a few guys using them - and this is always the key - it's not what model of QNAP, but:
- what drives
- what caching (read, read-write)
- what cache RAID (if read-write) RAID 1 or 5
- what RAID for the main drives
- SAN or NAS? If NAS is it NFS, CIFS, SMB (v1 or v2 or v3), AFP?
- QNAP firmware/OS version

We are using the QNAP 871T not with NAS but as a SAN using the software from GlobalSAN (globalSAN iSCSI Initiator) from Studio Network Solutions. We are not using a clustered file system (like Xsan 5 or StorNext) because it's not possible for two people to edit the same video at the same time anyway - so we just share a bunch of iSCSI volumes and connect/disconnect as required. It's a bit more fiddly than using a 'file share' but not much (and performs a LOT faster). Also we found AFP (Apple File Sharing) on QNAP totally broken - SMB is OK if you are using it as a NAS, but still slower than the iSCSI SAN implementation.

What sort of file sharing are you using?

Bob Zelin said:
If you only have 2 computers, you don't even need a switch - you can just go into the two built in 10G RJ45 ports
and edit away.
Click to expand...

Did you need to use a special cable for this? I know with 1GBE that you need a 'crossover' cable if you are not using a switch. I don't know if there is an equivalent for 10GBE. The Netgear Pro 10GBE switch is a pretty good price - buy the sonnet or the promise adapter then the switch and cables - it starts to add up, and I just can't see why you need it at all...
 
Last edited:
sorry for the delay.
If you cannot find a TVS-871T, the TVS-1282T is wonderful. Since I am a fan of using 10G with a thunderbolt to 10G adaptor, instead of direct thunderbolt, an even better value is the 12 bay TS-1685, which you can get for pretty much the same money as the TVS-1282T. There is a new model about to come out, that looks great as well - the Ryzen based TS-1277 that is a very fast 8 bay (the 10G ports are optional on this model, but it's only $399 retail for the 10G card). 16 Gig of RAM is plenty, but it can't hurt to get 32 gig of RAM, and many of these units are easier to find in stock with 32 gig of RAM. But let me assure you that the 16 gig models work perfectly for 4K and 6K editing.

As for thunderbolt 2 "not working" - what can I say, I have not had reliable experience, compared to using 10GbE with a cheap Cat 6 cable. I use Sonnet Twin 10G and Promise SanLink2 for thunderbolt 2 computers, and the new Promise SanLink3 (which is only $299 retail) for the new iMacs and MacBook Pro's that have thunderbolt 3 ports. Remember, you can only run a thunderbolt 3 cable 2 meters. Any longer and it drops in speed. With the 10G adaptor, you can have a 55 meter Cat6 cable on it that costs you 10 bucks !
As for drives, I have been using HGST NAS drives (not Ultrastar, or Gold) or WD RED NAS drives. The reliability is wonderful. I understand that the Seagate Ironwolf drives are much much better than the previous Seagate models, but I have had such bad experience over the years with Seagate, that I am still gun shy about Seagate. So I continue to use HGST or WD RED drives. Because I am not dealing with TGA sequences or tiny files, I have so far seen that using SSD Caching does absolutely nothing. In the past I have installed Samsung 850 Pro SSD's for the cache, but it does not affect the performance for video editing. On new systems with the TS-1685 or TVS-1282T, I have not been installing the SSD's (no caching) and not one person has said "its too slow, I am getting stuttering video". I have not loaded up a TS-1685 with M.2 SATA drives, so I cannot tell you if QNAP Qtier with the M.2 SATA drives makes a difference.
For the 8 bay, I do RAID 5, for the 12 bay I do RAID 6 (for 16 and 24 bays I do RAID 6). This is a NAS - network attached storage. I do not use iSCSI, and I do not use it as a SAN configuration. I do not use any SAN software like XSAN or
SANmp or Tiger Share. Nice simple GO> Connect To Server - always 10G, always with a Netgear 10G switch. In the past I only used AFP, but now I am only connecting with SMB. I turn off SMB Signing on every Mac with the
nsmb.conf file. It's a pain, but it makes a huge difference in performance. I used to use NFS before FCP X 10.3, because you could not write a library to the QNAP unless you used NFS, but now that Apple fixed this, I only use SMB.
For new systems, with Adobe Premiere, or Resolve, I use SMB. I face the reality that Apple wants AFP to go away.
For the QNAP firmware versions, I am using the latest QTS 4.3.3 version. On my home system, I am running the QTS 4.3.4 Beta. It has some bugs, but that's every new product, so I stick with the November 2017 release of QTS 4.3.3
for my production systems.

Arthur, you state "because its not possible for two people to edit the same video at the same time". I don't understand this. Everyone on the NAS can access the exact same media at the exact same time. IF you want bin locking (like for AVID Media Composer) you simply install Indiestor Mimiq on your local computer. You do not need to create an iSCSI target on the QNAP or use SANmp to make this stuff work.
AFP is not broken on the QNAP. Update your firmware, and I bet it starts to work. Most of my clients are using AFP with QNAP right now (even thought I am encouraging them to switch to SMB 3.0).
You do not need to buy a special cable (cross over cable) to go into the QNAP directly from your Mac or Win PC system. You plug directly into the QNAP ports (either the 1G or 10G ports) and assign static IP addresses on different subnets
and you will have no problems. You can have 2 10G clients, and 4 1G clients with no switch, if you like. The switch just makes it easier, and you can keep everyone on the same subnet.

It sounds like you are having a lot of issues with your system - who set it up for you ?
Bob Zelin
 
Thanks for replying Bob. Interesting setup. Like I said - Video editing is not my main job - so the QNAP performs triple/quadruple duty for a few different tasks - and some of the software we use requires a SAN, it's not compatible with NFS, AFP or SMB. Yes I could dedicate some of the storage to NAS for the video workflow stuff, I might consider that when I upgrade the disks... Right now the SAN works for our workflow - but like the examples you gave - I can see workflow changing to where we'll either need SANmp or to switch to NAS/SMB.

Good to hear that later firmware fixed the AFP issues, but like you said - if you are going to use a NAS, SMB is the easiest way to go now. If your software supports NAS, chances are it'll support SMB. If your software is SAN only, then the point is moot.

I hadn't thought much about the file size impact on caching - I'd assumed it was a block level cache, not a file cache: QNAP SSD Read/Write caching feature helps random IOPS performance by re-sorting (reducing write) block addresses in cache to reduce load on back-end disks.. But like you say - the proof is in the result - if you are not getting any stuttering - all is good, nothing to fix.

I don't care about TB3 speeds and cable lengths - the QNAP can only do 1 channel PCI / 10Gb - TB2 has 2 channels so is only half capacity - so cable length really doesn't matter here. Besides we are using TB2 anyway (why go to TB3 when the hardware is limited to 10Gb?). I can see a team doesn't need to get very big before you need to switch to 10GbE but the OP was asking about a small config, and I still maintain that TB2 on the 871T is fine - in fact better than all the fiddling with Ethernet. Maybe the best reply to the OP is - use an 871T and try the TB2 - if that doesn't work then add on the GbE adapter to the Mac and the QNAP is still the best solution.

Installing iSCSI SAN's is part of my day job - so I'm the guy who set it up for me ;)
 
I have the Promise Sanlink2 TB2 connected to a 10gbe card in my Synology 3018 6 disc NAS.

I'm having trouble figuring out the set up. Bob can u help?

I'm only getting 200 mb/s read /write speeds

Curtis
 
Bob Zelin said:
Hi Curtis - you should have emailed me.
I will contact you off list.
Bob Zelin
Click to expand...

I would treasure the help. I'm getting 800mb/s read but only 160mb/s write speeds.
 
So im ready to buy an Qnap. But got a few last questions.

Wich pie 10gbe card do you recommend for the workstations?

Can you use the power of the qnap to convert 8k r3d to proress or cineform? I mean its linux so you cant run redcine x, or any adobe apps like premiere, ae and media encoder. Perhaps davinci, and fusion... could run on it.

Is it possible to use the qnap as a render farm? What common programs does it support exporting from?

Im deciding between these models
Qnap TVS-1282T i7 32-64GB (price difference was quite low between 32 and 64).

Qnap TVS-1282T3 i7 32GB (cost the same as 64g TVS-1282T)

Is the TVS-1282T3 and TVS-1282T totally overkill for only two workstations editing. Im hoping to edit 8k in a 4k timeline one machine down the line (when the qnap only catering one workstation). And right now two editing 5k footage.

Am I better off importing the TVS-871T from England where it seems to be sold yet and save lots of money (or perhaps getting the QNAP TS-1685 wich the sell here yet)?
Its hard to know how much power I have use for from a nas. If you can use it for more tasks then feeding footage to the workstation I can se you really need as fast cpu as possible.



Any body think this is something to have under watch out? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1235889177/mustang-200-affordable-scalable-adv-computing-acce
 
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