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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ProRes RAW?

Don't see this happening with Red cameras. Sony has 16 Bit X-OCN for this purpose so also unlikely. I'd say.
Arri...perhaps.

Mid level cameras = best bet.
 
It's too soon to make any apples to apples (pun couldn't be resisted ;-), claims about RedCode RAW vs ProRes RAW. I'd expect RedCode to win in terms of perceptual quality at equivalent bit rates, but by how much?

Perhaps the more interesting discussion is about robust support across all toolsets. Logic suggests that the large installed base of ProRes users might be enough to get GPU vendors to cater to RAW decoding needs at a level the R3D user base never did. While I firmly believe that wavelets are a better technology for compressed capture than any DCT (discrete cosine transform) scheme to date, it has always required more resources to decode (in typical implementations, a lot more).

Over the years RED has offered accelerator cards, RedRocket and RedRocket-X, to alleviate the JP2K decode weight. Much appreciated, had them in my kit, but not ideal across the industry. If ProResRAW has broad adoption - hopefully without the platform protectionism - perhaps we will see GPUs, graphics libraries/languages/protocols/etc evolve to speed up processing of large rasters. FWIW, I'm also hoping that 8K on the horizon will further motivate the industry to increase bandwidth, move to newer interconnect standards and support RedUser workflows as a byproduct of engineering for 8K.

Cheers - #19
 
Terry VerHaar said:
They already license ProRes. Any reason to think they wouldn't extend the license to the new flavors?
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I don't think Tim Cook is gonna be like "All ya'll muthafuckas who licensed ProRes from us is gonna get ProResRAW for free wit ya current license!" ProRes serves as an Apple cash-cow and flagship branded product to license - hence why it's usually called "Apple ProRes" and not just what I used above - and ProResRAW is no different in that regard. The Apple ProRes licensing page was last updated on the 4th and includes no mention of ProRes RAW, so I'm sure it will be a separate license. They will use it as leverage to push sales of Apple's pro iMac and the upcoming MacPro (and accompanying software) to creatives, which in turn also pushes camera makers to license the codec for use in their products to appease the market demands, which also pushes PC software creators to license it for their respective software, though I can see Apple keeping it locked to their respective ecosystem for a bit to lock-in sales of Apple products.
 
Audy Erel said:
Small/Mirrorless camera could soon be having raw output with the advent of this ProRes.. Will the flexibility and quality be on par with .R3D?
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Yeah and I'll become 12-inches taller in the next year.

Not gonna happen. (Either one, sadly!)

Those cameras have less processing power than your average smartphone and though the datarate might be attainable in some designs, the power/performance compromises in smaller designs make it difficult to achieve any useful implementation of video recording without an external power source, which is why Sony developed an external battery pack for it's mirrorless cameras. There's also the nasty time limit mandated by EU tax laws that make video recording on those cameras hobbled by design. Though the limit can be removed, you still have the power consumption issue, which most companies will not bother to address apart from telling you to "buy more batteries". Personally, I think whoever builds a big battery pack to address that particular shortcoming is gonna be a rich SOB, though many mirrorless cameras don't have external power options - adapters - to begin with, so you're pretty much fucked either way unless you pick your gear carefully.
 
DJI X7 = 14bit ProRes RAW. The velocity of camera technology is relentless. Looking forward to RED's response to all of this
 
Zeb B said:
DJI X7 = 14bit ProRes RAW. The velocity of camera technology is relentless. Looking forward to RED's response to all of this
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I've heard rumors that it can do 48 bit, can't find any info in the white white paper.

I hope Sony, BMD, Panasonic and any other camera brand, will start supporting the license fee free Cineform.
Same counts for the NLE makers, AV1 would also be a big PLUS for the NLE makers.

Kill all the closed proprietary intermediate codecs and delivery codecs.
 
Zeb B said:
DJI X7 = 14bit ProRes RAW. The velocity of camera technology is relentless. Looking forward to RED's response to all of this
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You have misread. 14-bit CinemaDNG. 12-bit Apple ProRes RAW.

Also, RED's work differently than you think these days. Right down to the hardware color engine under the hood. It's not 2009 anymore.
 
Misha Engel said:
I've heard rumors that it can do 48 bit, can't find any info in the white white paper.

I hope Sony, BMD, Panasonic and any other camera brand, will start supporting the license fee free Cineform.
Same counts for the NLE makers, AV1 would also be a big PLUS for the NLE makers.

Kill all the closed proprietary intermediate codecs and delivery codecs.
Click to expand...

AV1 will be supported by everyone down the line, but it won't be until 2020-2021 when it gets any real use in the world. Encoders will be presented for evaluation and certification next year and hybrid decoder implementations for hardware should be available late next year. All the NLEs with encoders will have output support for it at some point, but there's no roadmap for that.
 
C. Burkhart said:
Sure about that ?
And with the strategic partnership between Foxconn and RED to create a lower tier, less expensive product, you don't think so ?

Further, the biggest advantage of this flavor of Prores is that it requires less processing power. As a proxy that offers lower bit alternatives for RAW, it seems very viable as a way to integrate parallel internal recording without taxing the processors.
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Yes, I'm pretty sure ProRes Raw will never be in any Red products. The lower tier camera of new Red Hydrogen phone will be recording in R3D. I see Red offering lower bit .R3D before allowing what would be a codec killer into their cameras.
 
I would think 12 bit raw is a bit low for hdr.
 
.r3d still has the filesize advantage, but this'll dummy it in terms of functionality (when it’s in-camera). I'd argue that playback/render speed is far more important than file size... And having it ready-to-launch and supported by cameras/recorders out of the gate is Apple showing their experience/foresight.

Very excited to see how this shapes up...
 
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Dominic Boudreault said:
"ProRes Raw and more coming this Monday in a free update for existing FCPX users."

Seriously, how great is that?!

Nowadays, with all these awesome FCPX updates, I'm so glad I didn't stick with the yearly subscription model of Premiere Pro.
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Given options like FCPX and Resolve, it's hard to imagine why any sane editor would continue spending money on Premiere. FCPX is the only NLE out there that's even close to keeping up with Resolve, and the only option in Resolve's price range.
 
It seems interesting that there are no metadata controls in FCPX to adjust the Color temp, tint, ISO before debayer on ProRes RAW. It appears that a debayer to log or with camera LUT happens before anything else. Maybe Apple will unlock these in the future, however, for now I wonder how much of an edge it will give you over just shooting ProRes in log.
 
Reuben Evans said:
It seems interesting that there are no metadata controls in FCPX to adjust the Color temp, tint, ISO before debayer on ProRes RAW. It appears that a debayer to log or with camera LUT happens before anything else. Maybe Apple will unlock these in the future, however, for now I wonder how much of an edge it will give you over just shooting ProRes in log.
Click to expand...

In theory, it ought to be more efficient than ProRes in log, but given Apple's long history of technological mediocrity, there's a good chance that it's just a marketing gimmick that means nothing more than yet another proprietary codec that uses Apple's generally inferior and overpriced hardware offerings as a dongle.

It's too bad Apple isn't customer oriented enough to partner with HP or Boxx or similar who have far more artist friendly solutions (ZBook x2, for example) than Apple has had in years.
 
Remember apparently Red has been getting back in with Apple. I wonder if Red had anything to do with it? It's clipped at 12 bits, like it's for lower end products. Hdr delivery is up to 12 bits consumer, which would require more in acquisition professionally for post.
 
Rakesh Malik said:
Given options like FCPX and Resolve, it's hard to imagine why any sane editor would continue spending money on Premiere. FCPX is the only NLE out there that's even close to keeping up with Resolve, and the only option in Resolve's price range.
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Because the FCPX interface integrates very poorly with legacy products and projects and because editors have a set of tools and habits that have evolved from other NLE's. Further, Apple destroyed all trust by the way in which they abandoned their previous NLE, leaving a lot of people in the hole. It was basically a f__k you to pro's everywhere. We don't care that your business has a backlog of 10 years of projects that can no longer be accessed or that this new codec from a camera means switching to an entirely new platform which has nothing to do with your team, workflow or business considerations. And Apple has shown that they are willing to do it again. Further, it has taken literally YEARS to get FCPX up to speed, correcting issues of great importance for serious editors after tremendous lapses of time. So in short: No f_king way would I go down their road again, and Apple has only got itself to blame for this.
 
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