ProRes RAW?

[Carlos Garcia-Diaz]

Because the FCPX interface integrates very poorly...

+1 for this. FCPX is solid/fast and I use it for multi-cam 4K projects where I've found Premiere just to be close to useless. Premiere's interface is much, much better though. FCP X has gotten better in that regard, but I can't stand the iMovie interface. Sometimes I think that someone at BM said the following during a Resolve development meeting: "OK, how can we implement some of the best features of FCP X and while also fixing everything that is wrong with the FCP X UI?"

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

so Prores Raw is apple's make up to its users for their inferior hardware. just like Prores was. apart from that the original Prores also covered over their inferior 32bit software ie FCP7. creating a robust solution basing on the video coding itself. I think it pays off for most users who have paid ridiculous premium for mediocre hardware. but still comes as in the middle solution in terms of quality and bit depth specifically.
the superiority of REDCODE, cDNG etc, is their ability to record 16bit. unlike 12bits of Prores RAW. that will keep these codecs in business for much longer serving quality enthusiast professionals and high end productions who can afford the complications of building up custom machines.
the technology for making high performance compressed raw was invented in cineform raw almost 10 years ago. I never saw a real implementation of the codec in cameras except from two models (SI-2K and KineRaw) both has its own flaws and trade offs concerning recording in this format. not to mention video recorders manufacturers never touched this surface. the surprise comes when apple do it, suddenly, two major manufacturers (DJI and ATOMOS) announce their support for the format. Assuming Cineform Raw is superior in quality than Prores (performance has to be tested although I remember playing back cineform raw 2k files on an intel core2 duo machine in realtime with lut) I would not blame apple for providing a mediocre product again. I would give them the credit for making this work as part of real workflow that would be practically supported in real life situation.
I think the ideal situation that would make this new format rock the world is the ability to record off the new small mirrorless/DSLR cameras people are using today. Imagine a Sony Alpha 7s III with raw output to Ninja V over HDMI recording Prores raw 12bit. Prores Raw is still a good solution for midrange cameras like FS5, FS7, C300 etc as they are mostly limited to 12bits. you'll always have to deal to external recorders complications (Mounting and Cables). it just made it a little better in post for that class of cameras.

Red's mission should be either finding ways for REDCODE to decode faster (maybe come up with REDCODE 2.0 or REDCODE Lite) or simply just integrate Prores raw in their cameras and that will make their footage more friendly with the widely adopted apple products thus increasing the popularity of the brand. I have been in many situations that the production decided to switch from Red to Arri cameras because their Mac Pro capsules couldn't handle the Dragon REDCODE footage. Although I proved them that the Dragon REDCODE was far more superior quality than Alexa's Prores. The decision was solely based on their time schedule and their available apple hardware. we are speaking color grading here not editing as we can always edit with proxies, this is why Prores RAW integration should be based on how an application like resolve would behave with the new format. still we don't know for sure but most likely it will rock because the adoption rate is promising.

while blaming apple for abandoning the professional market and focus their work on smartphones and tablets we still can't forget that RED itself is taking the same route. RED Hyodrogen? yes, this category of devices is really in a need to be revolutionized and RED has good history in breaking the ice. I love Hydrogen. Its the greatest RED mascot. but, in the end its a smartphone which I always turn off when I want shoot something serious. Instead I think red should be more focused on camera innovations. giving us more camera options. smaller camera systems, action cams, timelapse traps, Leica jewels, point and shoot, pocket cams, photography world? and etc. competing with every camera class in the market. making tools to empower the professionals doing their work not the average users.
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (on paper) is a success in RED's failed to achieve vision. Sony A7s (2014) is still the low light king compared with every cinema camera available on the market.

IMO, Red's superiority comes in the secret sauce for baking the image and their radical and revolutionary approach. I wish I can see a wider range of applications that harness these concepts in the near future.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Red's mission should be either finding ways for REDCODE to decode faster (maybe come up with REDCODE 2.0 or REDCODE Lite) or simply just integrate Prores raw in their cameras and that will make their footage more friendly with the widely adopted apple products thus increasing the popularity of the brand.

I'd rather have faster Redcode decode than ProRes raw, due to the proprietary nature of ProRes raw and Apple's history of betraying 3rd parties and customers alike.

while blaming apple for abandoning the professional market and focus their work on smartphones and tablets we still can't forget that RED itself is taking the same route.

Where's Red abandoning the professional market? Unifying the DSMC2 camera lineup into a single body implies the opposite.

 

[M Most]

I'd rather have faster Redcode decode than ProRes raw, due to the proprietary nature of ProRes raw.

Redcode RAW is just as proprietary as Prores RAW. In fact, the only RAW wrapper that I can think of off hand that isn't proprietary is DNG. Not to mention that you will never find Redcode RAW in any camera that isn't made by Red or Panavision. That is likely not the case with Prores RAW.

The promise of Prores RAW is that they could - I repeat, could - license it to various camera manufactuers, thus making it a common format that other software will support. That won't make it any less proprietary, but with a reasonably fast decode compared to other RAW formats (at least from what I've seen) it might be something that makes for an efficient workflow. Of course, they need to understand that not everyone wants to decode to Rec709, and thus make it practical to decode to other color spaces and gamma curves. Supporting a direct debayer to ACES linear (or ACEScct) might be a good start. So it needs to evolve, but my guess is that will come. The bigger questions are how many manufacturers are open to supporting another RAW file format, and will other software vendors support the format.

 

[Misha Engel]

Red's mission should be either finding ways for REDCODE to decode faster.

They did and they new it would take some time, August 2018 it will be in a store near you.

 

[DJ Meyer]

They did and they new it would take some time, August 2018 it will be in a store near you.

I would expect nothing less from Misha than to find a way to inject some AMD fanboyism into a thread about ProRes Raw. :wink:

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Redcode RAW is just as proprietary as Prores RAW. In fact, the only RAW wrapper that I can think of off hand that isn't proprietary is DNG.

Good point. I forget sometimes that making it widely available via the Red SDK doesn't change the fact that it's proprietary, even though it's pretty widely accessible.

The promise of Prores RAW is that they could - I repeat, could - license it to various camera manufactuers, thus making it a common format that other software will support.
That won't make it any less proprietary, but with a reasonably fast decode compared to other RAW formats (at least from what I've seen) it might be something that makes for an efficient workflow. Of course, they need to understand that not everyone wants to decode to Rec709, and thus make it practical to decode to other color spaces and gamma curves. Supporting a direct debayer to ACES linear (or ACEScct) might be a good start. So it needs to evolve, but my guess is that will come. The bigger questions are how many manufacturers are open to supporting another RAW file format, and will other software vendors support the format.

Hopefully it will evolve and also get some manufacturer friendly licensing. And support from other NLEs... I tried doing some editing in FCPX recently and got tired of it constantly misplacing clips that I'd already imported into the library... different clips every time I started FCPX back up. So I switched back to Resolve, because I wanted to get some editing done rather than spend my time troubleshooting that strange bug.

 

[Misha Engel]

I would expect nothing less from Misha than to find a way to inject some AMD fanboyism into a thread about ProRes Raw. :wink:

I like solutions that work, are not limited by certain licenses and don't break the bank while delivering.

Fanboys use equipment that doesn't deliver or break the bank just because they like the "brand".

 

[Antony Newman]

Apple’s white paper : https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/docs/Apple_ProRes_RAW_White_Paper.pdf

+) Processing requirements : ProRes RAW takes less that 1/3 the processing effort compared to R3Ds
+) Apple explain this is partly due to computationally expensive Debaying for codecs like R3D, which is not required for ProRes.

It would not surprise me if NLE clips caches adopts ProRes RAW (30% smaller than ProRes 422),
and UHD archives are stored in ProRes RAW HQ (half the size of ProRes 4444).

Side note : Has anyone heard (or requested) RED to enable DEBAYERING of Monstro R3Ds in the RRX?
Has G mentioned if his incredible new demosaic algorithm could be implemented in the RRX?

AJ