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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ProRes RAW?

P.S.

I've added ProRes RAW to the PHFX | tool framesToDataRate.

For instance, here's an example of 4K DCI at 24fps for 2 hours of footage.

http://phfx.com/tools/framesToDataRate/framesToDataRate.cgi?resX=4096&resY=2160&resolution=&REDresolution=&REDresolutionB=&REDCODERAWCR=5&fps=&hours=2&minutes=&intermediateCodec=DCI4K


There are two flavors. ProRes RAW HQ and ProRes RAW. Keep in mind it's a variable codec, so data rate will vary a bit. However, for typical storage predicting this will give you the general idea.
 
andrewhake said:
R3D is a closed codec is it not? Do you not use RED cameras?
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R3D is open for all major NLE's and operating systems (windows, mac, linux....) and it belongs "to the RAW they already have".

You can only export ProRes on Apple or Assimilate Scratch on Windows, when it's the same story with ProRes RAW, it's not ment for me.
 
Phil Holland said:
Sounds intriguing. Certainly another option for ProRes in and outside of cameras perhaps. Makes one wonder where Apple will integrate this into their own hardware products.
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BM should be happy Phil.

How's it going with the Sharp display reveal?
 
If it allows the same flexibility and opens the same post options that redcode raw does, as well as similar quality, this will boost the competition that uses it appeal by 1000%. I imagine Kinetify, Blackmagic, even Canon and Panasonic going for this as soon as available.
 
Sergio Perez said:
If it allows the same flexibility and opens the same post options that redcode raw does, as well as similar quality, this will boost the competition that uses it appeal by 1000%. I imagine Kinetify, Blackmagic, even Canon and Panasonic going for this as soon as available.
Click to expand...

I generally think this new codec is a "good thing". However, and this is a massive HOWEVER, with Adobe having CinemaDNG and Apple now having ProRes RAW I see a potential platform war that might be greater than the current issues regarding ProRes on Windows machines, which is mostly frustrating due to the not-so-OS-dependent software like Adobe's suite not having the same functionality between systems. Potentially that is.

REDCODE RAW is obviously RED's baby and they provide the SDK which keeps it flexible and well adopted.

Time will tell. Time might scream about it even.


I'll reiterate my thoughts about this new codec potentially coming to a new Apple hardware device outside of 3rd party hardware that will adopt/support it.
 
Interesting, so HQ is 2-4:1 and regular is 3-8:1 compression approximately. Kind of a nice feature that it's VBR so unlike redcode you don't have to manually change compression ratios in lower light to maintain image quality, it just does it on the fly as necessary to keep quality consistent. It does seem like redcode wavelet hasn't been the amazing compression I'd hoped in that it doesn't hold up too well past 8:1 anyway and is pretty inefficient compare to all the other raw formats in terms of processing. I wonder if red may support this, and I also wonder if prores raw LT is on its way eventually.
 
Interesting development... not sure how directly helpful to the Red community it can be.... I have no doubt REDs wavelets will hold up very well against DCT based Raw compressed?..

the big hope for me is it triggers Red spending time and money seriously increasing the computationally decode speed of R3ds.... Redraw is at the heart everything that is great about Red and I do feel it needs some more love!

IPP2, Helium and monstro all have added CPU/GPU overhead over the old legacy colour with dragon footage... we do need a speed boost!
 
Phil Holland said:
I generally think this new codec is a "good thing". However, and this is a massive HOWEVER, with Adobe having CinemaDNG and Apple now having ProRes RAW I see a potential platform war that might be greater than the current issues regarding ProRes on Windows machines, which is mostly frustrating due to the not-so-OS-dependent software like Adobe's suite not having the same functionality between systems. Potentially that is.

REDCODE RAW is obviously RED's baby and they provide the SDK which keeps it flexible and well adopted.

Time will tell. Time might scream about it even.

I'll reiterate my thoughts about this new codec potentially coming to a new Apple hardware device outside of 3rd party hardware that will adopt/support it.
Click to expand...

Phil, but this Apple Prores Raw seems much closer to a Redcode Raw or Cineform equivalent than a Cinema DNG, which is much less versatile?
 
Sergio Perez said:
Phil, but this Apple Prores Raw seems much closer to a Redcode Raw or Cineform equivalent than a Cinema DNG, which is much less versatile?
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Maybe, maybe not. Their speedy decode is based on the style of compression and decompression, like all things. Digging further however reveals some interesting concepts.

Example for REDCODE RAW, you can shoot 8K footage at about 9:1 compared to the data rates of ProRes RAW HQ 4K. Or even more interesting, 4K for 4K REDCODE RAW at 3:1 is smaller than ProRes RAW HQ.

http://phfx.com/tools/framesToDataRate/framesToDataRate.cgi?resX=&resY=&resolution=&REDresolution=&REDresolutionB=8K-FF-8192x4320&REDCODERAWCR=9&fps=&hours=2&minutes=&intermediateCodec=DCI4K

We'll have to see when it's in practice what this all means.


Something also to keep in mind for general motion picture workflow, GPU acceleration is about to take a pretty big leap, then two, then three big steps for those who want it.

My big curiosities will be is if there's any reason for RED to support this new codec in camera. Certainly it's possible that there might be reasons for doing so. New hardware may be required if the encoding is not supported via a firmware update (meaning the hardware in the camera can't do it as it didn't exist a bit ago). I think for many of the smaller cameras this will play a big roll. I also wouldn't be shocked if there's more RED related tech incoming on this front as well.
 
I definitely welcome prores raw on my Sony cameras, but I’m more than happy with r3ds.

I’d much rather have red allow us to output a 4K signal via sdi/hdmi out of the camera like what was possible with the redcast module, then offer prores raw.
 
I not intrested in process at all...But proress raw sound interesting for sure. Could be a good for people wanting to shoot 4k proress raw hq from the full sensor.
 
Small/Mirrorless camera could soon be having raw output with the advent of this ProRes.. Will the flexibility and quality be on par with .R3D?
 
There are no new hardware requirements, Apple says: "ProRes RAW brings to raw video the same first-rate performance and ease of editing that ProRes has brought to conventional video.
Raw video playback requires not only decoding the video bitstream but also demosaicing the decoded raw image. Final Cut Pro includes a streamlined and GPU-optimized demosaicing algorithm designed to meet the performance demands of real-time, multistream video editing."

Atomos also claims it will be 5.7 times faster to render than Redcode RAW 3:1, and still 1.5 times faster than Canon C200 RAW Lite.

Immediately supported cameras so far are: Canon C300k Mark II/C500 and Sony FS5/FS7/FS7 II and even the FS700.
 
Very excited to see this. Would love it as an intermediate alternative on DSMC2 bodies, for workflows where it makes sense: ProRes for offline, R3D for the ultimate in flexibility and quality, ProRes RAW for a middle-ground of quality and compatibility with other workflows/cameras using it.

I am curious if Graeme has any comments about what magic they're working behind the scenes with colour science. Are they using some form of ACES? Something home-baked? How does it compare to IPP2? What transforms and colour space are they using?
 
Phil Holland said:
Or even more interesting, 4K for 4K REDCODE RAW at 3:1 is smaller than ProRes RAW HQ.
Click to expand...

While 16 bit.
So 16 times more dense sampling than 12 bit. So...yeah.


Audy Erel said:
Small/Mirrorless camera could soon be having raw output with the advent of this ProRes..
Click to expand...


That would be great but it may be too optimistic. :)
 
Patrick Kendall said:
I'll say it right now, ProRes Raw will never be used in a red camera, not as long as R3D is around.
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Sure about that ?
And with the strategic partnership between Foxconn and RED to create a lower tier, less expensive product, you don't think so ?

Further, the biggest advantage of this flavor of Prores is that it requires less processing power. As a proxy that offers lower bit alternatives for RAW, it seems very viable as a way to integrate parallel internal recording without taxing the processors.
 
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