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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

One More Thing...

Mike P. said:
When I saw the prores module was 1080p only and didn't actually use the contacts/modularity of the camera (making it worse than the Pix, since the pix has sweet-sweet audio and a display and uses non-proprietary media and is essentially 2/3rds the cost when you factor in having to get a mini-mags and reader), I knew Toia wouldn't be too pleased.

I like the motion mount in theory, but I don't like the stop-loss associated with it (Phil said when turned off you lose 1 to 1.5), which basically takes the edge off of Dragon's improvements. Not good. Plus, for less than the cost of the mount you can get an entirely shootable 4k/raw camera with global shutter... why would someone pay so much when they can have a crash/b-cam/globalshuttercam for less $$ for those shots where rolling shutter and strobe are an issue?

The Fan 2.0 module bothers me more though; $450 to fix what many consider a design flaw? Yes, I realize that film cameras were loud too, but, uhh... this isn't film, it's solid state with no moving parts... Besides, RED, we know fans cost ~$8 each... 3x$8 = $24, not $450. Remember when you fixed the R1's sound boards for free? Yeah, well, this issue should have been treated like that.

I hope there is something more from RED this year. All of the announcements feel like 'two steps forward, one step back' to me... very incremental when compared to competitors making leaps (admittedly due to their transition to 4k/raw). I'm hoping the reason they haven't shown Dragon footage isn't a colour science one, but because they're going to be like, 'OH and by the way, Dragon does depth mapping' or 'single lens 3D' or '3 more stops natively....ABOVE the 18 of HDRx'... Something unquestionably better than anything the competition even has in the pipeline that will be relevant for the next camera generation (not something that barely edges out the F65 or Alexa). Personally, I see BM releasing a FF35 6k for $5k next year, and it makes me think paying $9500 now for Dragon isn't worth it. I don't see Dragon earning me an additional $9500 over what MX will in the next 12 months (especially if the Scarlet-D turn-around doesn't happen for another 1/2 year.)
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I agree about the ND mount. Lossing the stop makes you want to keep your old PL in the case to use for that shot in the end of the day when the sun has fallen. Then standing there changing mount does feel a bit odd. But it's just the beginning. I Hope that now when they have the tech they also make an "in front of lens active ND / shutter" that we can stick in the mattebox when needed and keep it out of the rest of the time. As I think I would like to shoot without more than with..

For the proress module stuff.. you got audio in the SDI HD out so my guess, I have not checked, the audio goes into the module as it is now. And I guess going trough the back of the camera would be more of a hassle and would need more tech in the actual module, so in that regard I kind of like that the +1 and proress stuff utilizes the outputs and video converters that is allready on board. And the relocation of the SDI-BNC out is not a bad thing, having it under the camera is kind of backwards when you start to add modules ,I think.

So no Im not buying the ND or the proxy stuff. Dragon on the other hand I find as a must have. And then the next module to buy would be the full meizler collection and the motors. So glad I did not push the buy button on any other motors, just yet. Wanted to wait for nab but I did actually not expect it would be that red made one. Now they also can assure that they will make a good hand unit it's very much the way to go I think. When they get their hand unit out and we can control EF lenses and having the meizler for wireless on the dragon then, yes, once again the competitors are very much left in the dust.
 
Yes guys,

Perhaps all the good stuff has happened.

NAB ain't over yet.

I had a lot of predictions correct in my thread two weeks ago, I would have liked to see a reduced price on media across the board and the dragon upgrade is 33% over the original 6K upgrade but I feel it is a must.

I can't wait to see the extra DR in the highlights and to see how it intercuts with the EPIC stuff.

I think 5K FF will be great from the 6K sensor with all the extra DR.

Big questions.

low light performance?
noise floor?
power consumption? (will my REDvolts last longer?)
Existing performance with original RED Rocket.
Frame ratios
Integration with Davinci, FCP X premier, etc.

What are the growing pains going to be like with Dragon? Or are we just continuing on like with EPIC or will it be like the early R1 days.

It's going to get its own whole new FW like EPIC and it will be in Beta.

Exciting times.

David
 
Björn Benckert said:
I agree about the ND mount. Lossing the stop makes you want to keep your old PL in the case to use for that shot in the end of the day when the sun has fallen. Then standing there changing mount does feel a bit odd. But it's just the beginning. I Hope that now when they have the tech they also make an "in front of lens active ND / shutter" that we can stick in the mattebox when needed and keep it out of the rest of the time. As I think I would like to shoot without more than with..
Click to expand...

Of course you should keep your PL mount for those times when you need the extra stop and a half. That was the point of making it a mount (as Jarred said). I love the prospect of ND-less shooting in bright light. and it takes about as long to change a mount as it does to clean an ND and swap it into the matte box.
 
Mike P. said:
I like the motion mount in theory, but I don't like the stop-loss associated with it (Phil said when turned off you lose 1 to 1.5), which basically takes the edge off of Dragon's improvements. Not good.
Click to expand...

I find myself really disagreeing with you on this. This crazy cool new mount doesn't diminish the dynamic range of the new sensor (the main value, in my opinion, of the new sensor). The sensor will still have its 16 or 17 native stops of dynamic range--which is completely fantastic. The mount simply leaves a permanent .3 ND on the front of the camera, which, when combined with the much higher ASA capabilities of the sensor, is hardly a problem. It will be a super bright camera--as bright or brighter than any other high end camera--with the Motion Mount on. More stops, more resolution, less noise, super-cool (and fast) ND control, incredible shutter control. Wow! Wow! Wow!
 
paul engstrom said:
I find myself really disagreeing with you on this. This crazy cool new mount doesn't diminish the dynamic range of the new sensor (the main value, in my opinion, of the new sensor). The sensor will still have its 16 or 17 native stops of dynamic range--which is completely fantastic. The mount simply leaves a permanent .3 ND on the front of the camera, which, when combined with the much higher ASA capabilities of the sensor, is hardly a problem. It will be a super bright camera--as bright or brighter than any other high end camera--with the Motion Mount on. More stops, more resolution, less noise, super-cool (and fast) ND control, incredible shutter control. Wow! Wow! Wow!
Click to expand...

Oh sorry, I mean in terms of ISO... ISO2000 minus 1-1.5 stops drops it back to about ISO800 (better than film, but not as good as Sony's or Canon's offerings). It's not that it's a problem, it's just that it negates the (lowlight/noise/ISO) improvement. Also, since ISO has an effect on dynamic range (or at least it does with MX), it would drop that a little too... Alexa has a mechanical shutter and is 14+ stops usable (closer to 16stops total in some of the tests files I've seen). All said and done, after processing and compression, I have a feeling Dragon is going to be almost exactly the same (~16-17stops total, 14-15 usable), hence RED saying +3 stops over MX rather than just saying flat-out "16" or "18" or "20"....either that or they're being extremely conservative in their estimations for some reason.

Honestly, while it is definitely an improvement, 3 stops above MX would basically put Dragon on par with Arri and Sony, which isn't the horn they've been tooting since initial testing. It's far less extraordinary than that picture of a maxed out 20-stop chart from a month ago (which indicated ~EIGHT stops above MX; 4-5 above Sony/Arri flagships). I just hope that they're either saving something big for the end of the show OR they're being extremely conservative because of the all the vitriol they've received as of late. People now have a multitude of 4k+ and/or raw camera choices and have understandably become incredibly critical of RED since they are no longer the only affordable (or downright cheap in the case of BM) game in town.
 
For those hoping for projector news, it seems like the home/grading suite version is still a ways away.

The odemax guys told me that the theater version is going to be unleashed well before the smaller one and that even that one is a ways away. The theater version is going by the handle "crimson" and odemax didn't even seem to know of a code name (or product name) for the home version. That is, unless they were just being cagey...

Odemax is obviously working closely with red on the projectors (or at least they're being kept in the loop) since they are so integrated with redray.

By the way, in addition to Sony's impressively priced 55" 4k display, they were showing an incredible looking 30" 4K OLED. All that was visible was the panel but in talking to them, the implication seemed to be that this was going to go in a pro monitor; not a consumer set. That sucker would look pretty darn good on my desk.
 
I bet they're releasing a CRT monitor
 
CRT Laser projector? Isn't that a Russian thing.

Matt Elkind said:
For those hoping for projector news, it seems like the home/grading suite version is still a ways away.

The odemax guys told me that the theater version is going to be unleashed well before the smaller one and that even that one is a ways away. The theater version is going by the handle "crimson" and odemax didn't even seem to know of a code name (or product name) for the home version. That is, unless they were just being cagey...
Click to expand...

Red spot. ;)

Really, this is BS, been waiting for years, I'm not interested in Redray, can use the projector today, virtually all you can for grading and post, and millions just for computer and gaming. They are flushing good money. If anybody wants redray they can buy it separately, otherwise a lot of people will be put off buying the projector for a few thousand more to pay for Redray. Maybe they need three versions, basic, Redray and crimson. Most of the world does not get Odemax. If Odemax is the reason for the delay, then I am not happy that it is so long. Good grief, the gaming culture would have a field day with this, at a descent price, apart from photograph and designers, editors and colorists, just get a descent ambient light suppressing projection screen to put in front of them for lit room use in high saturation and contrast, and they are off. Look at how Laservue does it.


4k TV is $2995 today, bright and cheerful, the $18k+ (manufacturer) delusion bubble has finally burst. The big brands are coming with $4k+ 4k TV. The realistic price is $5k+ for laser projection, plus screen. $7k outside price for volume sales. People will prefer to buy a big screen TV if impressive and much less, than a projector with a washed out mat screen. The bigger market is not film/video makers, or low volume disillusioned home theatre projector buyers, , but people who would buy TV's. The price problem above is that each year of delay in introducing a new product initially can be a 50% cut in price to dominate sales, otherwise up features. So the projector now needs Redray and a ambient light rejecting high contrast and saturation screen option as an extra, to do volume at $7k, but a 8k display port projector with future 8k redray upgrade module (user swapable cartridge) for $10k would leave them salivating. 4k is no longer the chargeable top end, 8k is, and within a year we are probably going to see it pan out.

Even for TV millions can buy it and buy Redray latter.


I still love Red for what they do and could do, but bring on the love.
 
Definitely did not get the sense that odemax or the redray player are holding up the projector. Rather, developing the projector is holding up the projector. This is not my area of expertise at all, but I got the sense that figuring out the best and safest way to fire some pretty serious lasers across our living rooms is taking some work. Again, I'm no scholar when it comes to laser tech so maybe someone with a better handle on the state of the technology could speak to that.

The odemax guys weren't super forthcoming with any of this but this is the sense I got talking to them.
 
There is no safe way, probably partly why they had to divide the home and theatre projectors to keep the maxinum power down. The problem is the laser scare of firing things across the room makes it seem more dangerous than normal dangerous high intensity projectors. However, in my own design research many years ago I figured that if the beam hit a resonance frequency of a material it could do more damage than otherwise. I came up with a few solutions that apply. I remember the moderator of the laser safety FAQ telling me their was no issue, but official research has since proved it.

However, this is all a bit old common knowledge by now, unless they are attempting to do the seemingly impossible like transmitting damaging brightness across the room without it damaging anybody, but I did come up with potential solutions for that. The only thing that could be holding them up (apart from parts and manufacturer negotiations, like those as is for redray) is if they are attempting some super dupper new laser projecting method nobody else has except my drawing board etc. Even then I could have given them a uhd resolution result with projector on the market 2 years ago cheaper. They were showing the thing off last year. So I think that a basic HDMI/displayport projector is unlikely to be holding them up. Suspects Redray or super new projection mechanism., maybe business or parts.
 
Forgot, if they are using scanning mechanism, then they are in trouble, the absolute brightness levels in latter research is rather low luminance. The passing peak intensity briefly energising cells is an issue. In medical laser they use this at resonance frequencies to explode skin and eye cells. The solution is to use multiple scans of lower power, just get a 4k dmd for even lower power. If they used a Russian laser crt projector they might do better, but take time to convince regulators, and would definitely explain a seperate laser heat unit and greater cost. Those things would chew power, but as a sed or other flat panel version, could do better. I posted about maybe using these things on forums years ago, like a lot of things I posted that turned up. Never could get the Russians interested in doing business on that, or the other sensor for a cinema camera.
 
Actually, a good compromise is to go to OKI and see about their laser diode array technology, like a led array screen, but with lasers. I should not give too much away, have a big library of product suppliers. That would be pretty simple and cheap in bulk, and a constant non scan display. Maybe not good for cinema sizes, but good for home theater maybe. Another were reflective LCD project in chips, that actually turn mirrored on the surface, maybe cheolestic LCD, I forget. I'm not suggesting Sony's ribbon chip, even though it might prove nice. Yep just got a brand spanking new design pop into my head, which ticks all the boxes almost, I think based on late 80's tech but in a new way, got another using a newer technology. See you want to achieve maximum brightness with as little energy loss and mini um chromatic aberrations and light scattering, that is were it becomes tricky. Sony's ribbon structure and dmd, should produce various interference with these structures, decreasing the saturation and maybe contrast of the laser light. On a normal projector you may not notice it because the light is so desaturated, even on a led projector, but on a laser you will, but most of the tine it probably won't matter. Most light in nature is not as highly saturated, so correct rendering of scenes will often have such light, so you can calculate the shifts in the projection mechanism and add that into the color balance to produce the right color nearly 100% of the time for most scenes. However, without testing the amount of this factor on these technologies I can not be certain the washout will be bigger and I'm wrong. There are so many different ways to do it, I personally came up with around a hundred new ways to do a laser projection device years ago. Great mental exercise.
 
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