Observations...

[Mark Andersen]

Ergonomics are amazing. The cooling path is WAYYY improved. The camera is freakishly quiet now. Runs much cooler right off the bat and the location of the fan exhaust on the bottom rear is a much better spot. Also, it's so damn light it's hard to believe, and I didn't even have the Carbon variety.

This pic is from the camera prep as we were kitting it out for the shoot... and YES, I see that the motor cable is stretched, we were playing with different options on where to place all of the accessories we planned on using.

It looks like if you switch the cable around, 45 degree angle lemo on top and straight on on the bottom it would work a little better. Haha, I just couldn't help my self.

 

[Scott Crawley]

So your vote is we abolish upgrade campaigns moving forward? Copy that.

That's actually not what I'm saying at all... Brent, you said you consider RED to be family... your response is like saying, "So you have a problem? Fine, we'll get divorced."

I'm hearing that too.

I wonder why these people's (Red people) feelings might be hurt? Could it be the endlessly demanding and selfish nature of the inquiries and complaints? Could it be that they are giving their all and yet feel it isn't enough to make people happy? I can't imagine why they might feel taken for granted.

:sarcasm:

This wouldn't be a simple reflection on you Brendan, but of the RedUser community as a whole. Have you ever had a partner who was a bottomless pit of need? It is quite exhausting... Especially when they take a piss on your party.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'm hearing that too.

I wonder why these people's (Red people) feelings might be hurt? Could it be the endlessly demanding and selfish nature of the inquiries and complaints? Could it be that they are giving their all and yet feel it isn't enough to make people happy? I can't imagine why they might feel taken for granted.

:sarcasm:

This wouldn't be a simple reflection on you Brendan, but of the RedUser community as a whole. Have you ever had a partner who was a bottomless pit of need? It is quite exhausting.

"RED people" are such artsy types; their feelings get hurt easily, you know. Can't imagine why else they be so sensitive to all this "constructive criticism" that they aren't kind and generous enough; or that they just aren't running their company like it should be run.

 

[Scott Crawley]

"RED people" are such artsy types; their feelings get hurt easily, you know. Can't imagine why else they be so sensitive to all this "constructive criticism" that they aren't kind and generous enough; or that they just aren't running their company like it should be run.

Here is a funny thought; when Jarred would talk of Brent being pissed about leaking product info I just assumed it was for marketing reasons. That doesn't make any sense of course, because Marketing wants to build the kind of enthusiasm that leaks like those engender. So what if Brent was pissed because he loathes the inevitable knee jerk reaction bitch fest that will follow on RU, and knows it will ruin his reverie before the party actually begins?

It really sucks when you think of it that way.

It it is also possible that Brent never gave a shit about Jarred's leaks, but it makes for a better story.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

I'm hearing that too.

I wonder why these people's (Red people) feelings might be hurt? Could it be the endlessly demanding and selfish nature of the inquiries and complaints? Could it be that they are giving their all and yet feel it isn't enough to make people happy? I can't imagine why they might feel taken for granted.

:sarcasm:

This wouldn't be a simple reflection on you Brendan, but of the RedUser community as a whole. Have you ever had a partner who was a bottomless pit of need? It is quite exhausting... Especially when they take a piss on your party.

Hey Scott - understood. I have no doubt RED has always been working hard to aim towards the needs of the many.

My question, though, was just in regards as to why there have been quite a lot of images and product display videos, but nothing of Weapon (nor of VV 8K) actually in full operation? I'd completely understand if this were back in 2007 with Jannard asking everyone to take a gamble so they could get the full product developed, but RED has had time to build up finances over the past 8 years since RED One's release. They have asked people to take a leap of faith and put down deposits many times before, which many companies do, but there have definitely been great delays or cancelled products without any official notice as to what happened (the $13k Meizler Module comes to mind).

My question isn't unfounded, nor do I think it necessarily warranted the reaction it's received so far.

 

[Scott Crawley]

My question isn't unfounded, nor do I think it necessarily warranted the reaction it's received so far.

I wasn't so much responding to the content or nature of your question alone. Maybe Brent wasn't either. Your voice is one of many.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Sorry, I did not intend to offend you. Now with the SSDs that was a generous move from Jarred I agree, and I took advantage of that - but still, you have to pay 1500€ for a 512GB SSD.
Let´s see, what they come up with

Cheers, Ulf

No worries Didn't feel offended if it sounds like it. Just didn't want to look like a bloody fool that's why I responded.

All is good in southern Germany! Cheers!

 

[Jarred Land]

For additional sugar on top if there would be an option for sending in acc at the time of purchase of the camera upgrade, that would be sweet!
Send in side handle to get a (small / tiny) trade-in discount towards sidekick AL and/or REDVOLT expander purchase.
Send in side handle + battery mount for some sort of discount towards sidekick and REDVOLT expander or weapon battery module (or future side handle )

Thinking out loud again

This would never happen.. but your post did wake me up and made me realize the very unrealistic expectations that people put on us, and reminded me even if we did accommodate something down in AL people would just ask for more more more... this was a good reflection of that.

It is a business folks...

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

It is a business folks...

I always knew that, and never had false expectations

 

[sam karr]

This would never happen.. but your post did wake me up and made me realize the very unrealistic expectations that people put on us, and reminded me even if we did accommodate something down in AL people would just ask for more more more... this was a good reflection of that.

It is a business folks...

Second cold shower of the week.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This would never happen.. but your post did wake me up and made me realize the very unrealistic expectations that people put on us, and reminded me even if we did accommodate something down in AL people would just ask for more more more... this was a good reflection of that.

It is a business folks...

Nail hit on the head. I think some people have genuine concerns and have articulated them well. I think others are unrealistic and have no idea how the real world works. I've babbled enough about entitlement lately so I'll avoid doing it here but I think you have seen it play out over the past few years. I believe you guys are still passionate about making cool cameras for yourselves and anyone else interested. But once it became a business it needs to make business sense. It's not a 501c last time I checked.

I say continue to be fair, respect the loyal customers, but be confident in where that line is drawn.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This wouldn't be a simple reflection on you Brendan, but of the RedUser community as a whole. Have you ever had a partner who was a bottomless pit of need? It is quite exhausting... Especially when they take a piss on your party.

If you want to see RED survive as a company you will probably realize this does not sound realistic...

Conversely though RED has survived as a company in a large part because-of not in-spite-of their relationship with their customers. RED has enormously profited from the personal relationships it has developed with its customers (See Ivan's BTS video in Recon. There are a thousand Ivans out there pushing RED every day, and Ivan counts for a thousand more. ). It's a double edged sword though, when you want the benefits of your customers treating you like a friend or family member--they also start feeling "entitled" to similarly being treated the same. If RED had been treated like any other business people wouldn't have put up with delays and cancelled projects. If RED had been treated like any other business you wouldn't have seen people putting down giant deposits on products whose specs hadn't even been outlined or announced. If RED had been treated by its customers like a normal business you wouldn't see anywhere near the level of passion and evangelism that RED receives. If RED had treated its customers like a normal business they would have needed to spend substantially more on marketing, their customers would have expected a service center in every city and everything else that goes with a normal business. I've paid for airfare to LA and paid for my own hotel to offer advice to RED before. I've sat on set and stubbornly tried to address every complaint by ACs and DPs who loathed RED and patiently walked them through solutions. I don't think I'm that odd of a RED customer, there are people all over the world doing the same sorts of things. That's the sort of customer base that RED has earned. And they have that customer because they don't just treat their customers as normal customers.

It's not fair to expect RED to bankrupt itself trying to please unreasonable expectations. But it's also not fair to suggest that RED as a company has survived in spite of its unusual relationship with its customer base when there have been not just intangible but very tangible financial rewards in the past. This was covered really well in an economics book I read where they were talking about the trend of businesses trying to use familial relationships to build customer loyalty. The author warned though that a lot of these companies are only doing this so that they can make more money through increased retention--but it doesn't come without costs, when they later try to issue a late fee to said "family member", the customer is obviously is outraged that a "family member" would charge them a late fee and you receive poorer customer satisfaction reviews than in a traditional business since the expectations in a friends and family relationship are different from a regular business environment. If RED wants to just treat its relationship with its customers as a business then it will lose a lot of customers who view RED as family and just jump ship for the cheapest next thing to come along. Both ultimately have to do what's best for their businesses but a good relationship can definitely put a thumb on the scale one way or another. That thumb on RED's side of the scale thanks to their somewhat unrealistically generous behavior has been rewarded with a big fat thumb on choosing RED, evangelizing RED and selling RED on RED's behalf when they were viewed as a scam or when real 'naysayers' were complaining about bayer resolution etc. It's unfair to say the complainers and entitled whiners are just mooching off of RED's generosity. RED has been spectacularly generous--and I would argue that RED's customers have also been incredibly generous over the years in their support of RED in return. Neither should feel entitled but neither should dismiss the contributions of the other. Similarly if you want to have a dialog with your customers, sometimes that dialog isn't going to be praise and gratitude. I know not every conversation with my fiancee is about how much we love and value each other and how much everything the other is doing is exactly what we wished they would do haha.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

It's not fair to expect RED to bankrupt itself trying to please unreasonable expectations.

Amen.

It is amazing that ARRI charges $68K for an ALEXA Mini (what it costs to kit it into working order) and everyone thanks them. No credit to back to customers who bought ALEXA Plus or ALEXA whatever. Because there is no expectation that ARRI would ever do that. RED has been OVERLY generous.

As a parent ... it's what we call spoiling your kids. And it's tough ... because as a parent you WANT to give your kids EVERYTHING - but that rarely is the best thing for them. Sometimes you gotta just say "NO" and just tune out the tears.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This would never happen.. but your post did wake me up and made me realize the very unrealistic expectations that people put on us, and reminded me even if we did accommodate something down in AL people would just ask for more more more... this was a good reflection of that.

It is a business folks...

I just had a conversation with another local RED Owner who is very mad/ upset over the Weapon upgrade pricing and whatever else he feels like being mad at. He seems to think that you guys "no longer represent the indie filmmaker." He seems to think that by going Aluminum cladding on the CF Weapon, it's going to cut the price in half. In fact, he's adamant about that. I won't call him out on the forum here, but sweet jeebus...

I'm really getting the feeling that I'm in the minority here, having put in my deposit and pre-order for the 8K CF Weapon upgrade on day 1. But I'm excited as hell for 8K and beyond. My posts here don't really show it, but you guys don't know how freakin' excited I am over this. I wish I could have made the show this year, I probably would have hugged you.

Oh yeah, that Forged Carbon Weapon is one sexy beast! I'd love to have that over the woven carbon, but hey... It's a business on this end too. Haha.


I have run the numbers so many times over the past few days and to think that when I started with my first RED One in early 2008, thru Stage-2 EPIC, then on to Dragon, how awesome the whole process and continuous upgrades have been. I sold that camera at that point since I had also bought the EPIC-M and at that point since I didn't need two EPICs anymore. If I had kept the EPIC-X Dragon, I could have migrated it now to a Mg Weapon and still have less invested in that core camera kit than if I had bought an Alexa way back when. EPIC-M -> Dragon -> CF Weapon is working out a bit different on the numbers, but still excellent when all is considered.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of love circulating around here after the NAB announcements... But I gotta say that there are some of us who really do appreciate the upgrade path and the continuous advancements. I love RED for this and I can't wait to see what comes next. BTW, ready or not, I'll take that 8K as soon as you can get it to me!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of love circulating around here after the NAB announcements... But I gotta say that there are some of us who really do appreciate the upgrade path and the continuous advancements. I love RED for this and I can't wait to see what comes next. BTW, ready or not, I'll take that 8K as soon as you can get it to me!

Yup.

 

[Dr. Sassi]

…

It is a business folks...

… but people handle business differently.

I really feel that RED cares, stays in communication and changes very fast -- if it makes sense.

I can't say that from a lot of companies.

 

[Joe Kleber]

$68K!!!!!

 

[Elsie N]

Conversely though RED has survived as a company in a large part because-of not in-spite-of their relationship with their customers. RED has enormously profited from the personal relationships it has developed with its customers (See Ivan's BTS video in Recon. There are a thousand Ivans out there pushing RED every day, and Ivan counts for a thousand more. ). It's a double edged sword though, when you want the benefits of your customers treating you like a friend or family member--they also start feeling "entitled" to similarly being treated the same. If RED had been treated like any other business people wouldn't have put up with delays and cancelled projects. If RED had been treated like any other business you wouldn't have seen people putting down giant deposits on products whose specs hadn't even been outlined or announced. If RED had been treated by its customers like a normal business you wouldn't see anywhere near the level of passion and evangelism that RED receives. If RED had treated its customers like a normal business they would have needed to spend substantially more on marketing, their customers would have expected a service center in every city and everything else that goes with a normal business. I've paid for airfare to LA and paid for my own hotel to offer advice to RED before. I've sat on set and stubbornly tried to address every complaint by ACs and DPs who loathed RED and patiently walked them through solutions. I don't think I'm that odd of a RED customer, there are people all over the world doing the same sorts of things. That's the sort of customer base that RED has earned. And they have that customer because they don't just treat their customers as normal customers.

It's not fair to expect RED to bankrupt itself trying to please unreasonable expectations. But it's also not fair to suggest that RED as a company has survived in spite of its unusual relationship with its customer base when there have been not just intangible but very tangible financial rewards in the past. This was covered really well in an economics book I read where they were talking about the trend of businesses trying to use familial relationships to build customer loyalty. The author warned though that a lot of these companies are only doing this so that they can make more money through increased retention--but it doesn't come without costs, when they later try to issue a late fee to said "family member", the customer is obviously is outraged that a "family member" would charge them a late fee and you receive poorer customer satisfaction reviews than in a traditional business since the expectations in a friends and family relationship are different from a regular business environment. If RED wants to just treat its relationship with its customers as a business then it will lose a lot of customers who view RED as family and just jump ship for the cheapest next thing to come along. Both ultimately have to do what's best for their businesses but a good relationship can definitely put a thumb on the scale one way or another. That thumb on RED's side of the scale thanks to their somewhat unrealistically generous behavior has been rewarded with a big fat thumb on choosing RED, evangelizing RED and selling RED on RED's behalf when they were viewed as a scam or when real 'naysayers' were complaining about bayer resolution etc. It's unfair to say the complainers and entitled whiners are just mooching off of RED's generosity. RED has been spectacularly generous--and I would argue that RED's customers have also been incredibly generous over the years in their support of RED in return. Neither should feel entitled but neither should dismiss the contributions of the other. Similarly if you want to have a dialog with your customers, sometimes that dialog isn't going to be praise and gratitude. I know not every conversation with my fiancee is about how much we love and value each other and how much everything the other is doing is exactly what we wished they would do haha.

I normally don't read long posts, but Gavin, you have a way of creating and holding interest.

And I think you've done a good job of seeing both sides and identifying the dynamics between the RED/customer relationship.

 

[Paul Duvilla]

While I do agree with you on the majority not feeling positive after NAB, I am in a different situation. I now find myself fortunate enough to be purchasing an Epic Dragon, and I couldn't be happier. Although the upgrade to Weapon does seem like a lot, I am fully intending on doing it, and to be honest its very nice now to finally be able to participate in the upgrade system. I do understand some users frustrations, but no other company offers anything like this, and to me that is very valuable.

I just had a conversation with another local RED Owner who is very mad/ upset over the Weapon upgrade pricing and whatever else he feels like being mad at. He seems to think that you guys "no longer represent the indie filmmaker." He seems to think that by going Aluminum cladding on the CF Weapon, it's going to cut the price in half. In fact, he's adamant about that. I won't call him out on the forum here, but sweet jeebus...

I'm really getting the feeling that I'm in the minority here, having put in my deposit and pre-order for the 8K CF Weapon upgrade on day 1. But I'm excited as hell for 8K and beyond. My posts here don't really show it, but you guys don't know how freakin' excited I am over this. I wish I could have made the show this year, I probably would have hugged you.

Oh yeah, that Forged Carbon Weapon is one sexy beast! I'd love to have that over the woven carbon, but hey... It's a business on this end too. Haha.


I have run the numbers so many times over the past few days and to think that when I started with my first RED One in early 2008, thru Stage-2 EPIC, then on to Dragon, how awesome the whole process and continuous upgrades have been. I sold that camera at that point since I had also bought the EPIC-M and at that point since I didn't need two EPICs anymore. If I had kept the EPIC-X Dragon, I could have migrated it now to a Mg Weapon and still have less invested in that core camera kit than if I had bought an Alexa way back when. EPIC-M -> Dragon -> CF Weapon is working out a bit different on the numbers, but still excellent when all is considered.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of love circulating around here after the NAB announcements... But I gotta say that there are some of us who really do appreciate the upgrade path and the continuous advancements. I love RED for this and I can't wait to see what comes next. BTW, ready or not, I'll take that 8K as soon as you can get it to me!

 

[sam karr]

Conversely though RED has survived as a company in a large part because-of not in-spite-of their relationship with their customers. RED has enormously profited from the personal relationships it has developed with its customers (See Ivan's BTS video in Recon. There are a thousand Ivans out there pushing RED every day, and Ivan counts for a thousand more. ). It's a double edged sword though, when you want the benefits of your customers treating you like a friend or family member--they also start feeling "entitled" to similarly being treated the same. If RED had been treated like any other business people wouldn't have put up with delays and cancelled projects. If RED had been treated like any other business you wouldn't have seen people putting down giant deposits on products whose specs hadn't even been outlined or announced. If RED had been treated by its customers like a normal business you wouldn't see anywhere near the level of passion and evangelism that RED receives. If RED had treated its customers like a normal business they would have needed to spend substantially more on marketing, their customers would have expected a service center in every city and everything else that goes with a normal business. I've paid for airfare to LA and paid for my own hotel to offer advice to RED before. I've sat on set and stubbornly tried to address every complaint by ACs and DPs who loathed RED and patiently walked them through solutions. I don't think I'm that odd of a RED customer, there are people all over the world doing the same sorts of things. That's the sort of customer base that RED has earned. And they have that customer because they don't just treat their customers as normal customers.

It's not fair to expect RED to bankrupt itself trying to please unreasonable expectations. But it's also not fair to suggest that RED as a company has survived in spite of its unusual relationship with its customer base when there have been not just intangible but very tangible financial rewards in the past. This was covered really well in an economics book I read where they were talking about the trend of businesses trying to use familial relationships to build customer loyalty. The author warned though that a lot of these companies are only doing this so that they can make more money through increased retention--but it doesn't come without costs, when they later try to issue a late fee to said "family member", the customer is obviously is outraged that a "family member" would charge them a late fee and you receive poorer customer satisfaction reviews than in a traditional business since the expectations in a friends and family relationship are different from a regular business environment. If RED wants to just treat its relationship with its customers as a business then it will lose a lot of customers who view RED as family and just jump ship for the cheapest next thing to come along. Both ultimately have to do what's best for their businesses but a good relationship can definitely put a thumb on the scale one way or another. That thumb on RED's side of the scale thanks to their somewhat unrealistically generous behavior has been rewarded with a big fat thumb on choosing RED, evangelizing RED and selling RED on RED's behalf when they were viewed as a scam or when real 'naysayers' were complaining about bayer resolution etc. It's unfair to say the complainers and entitled whiners are just mooching off of RED's generosity. RED has been spectacularly generous--and I would argue that RED's customers have also been incredibly generous over the years in their support of RED in return. Neither should feel entitled but neither should dismiss the contributions of the other. Similarly if you want to have a dialog with your customers, sometimes that dialog isn't going to be praise and gratitude. I know not every conversation with my fiancee is about how much we love and value each other and how much everything the other is doing is exactly what we wished they would do haha.

Great post.