Observations...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What you are describing is a Scarlet-X Dragon, though not exactly for the price you are looking for.

The big selling point on Weapon though is form factor.

There is absolutely no reason to buy 1.8" SSDs because they are useless going forward so I don't want to spend more money on obsolete media. Buying a Minimag module though costs $1,500 + Cost of refreshing Media ($1000+) and then when you eventually upgrade to Weapon your side module is obsolete and useless anyway so you have spent $1,500+ on a dead-end module.
If I were to say buy an XL module I could keep the batteries when/if I upgrade to weapon but the XL module for Epic is useless with only one 2pin Lemo port and the module adapter adds so much length to the camera body that it wouldn't fit in my camera case so that's out.
I could buy a 7" monitor today but when I upgrade to Weapon I would want a Weapon compatible monitor. But then it's limited to Weapon. Or I could buy the Lemo 7" monitor today and then I wouldn't be able to take advantage of it with Weapon.

The end result is that I no longer want to buy anything for my Epic because they're all dead-end accessories that are obsolete. RED bodies are one of the cheaper parts of owning a RED camera. I would say about 70% of my spending has gone into accessories and about 30% has gone into the body (why I advocated Epic over Scarlet when people were on the fence, with Scarlet it's even more extreme). So I can't buy new accessories because they're dead-ends but I also can't use the not-obsolete accessories because they don't work with my existing camera. For instance I would like to possibly pick up one or two of Mark's modules because they look promising but I can't because I don't have the latest and greatest platform.

The end result is that I'm buying things that work with *every* camera because there is no promise that the Weapon body form factor will see a Mid-Life-Epic style halving of price. If Weapon dropped in price by half in 2016 like Epic did in 2013 and the AKS rebate was still in effect then I would upgrade for sure. But if Weapon remains for the forseeable future as you put it a premium product then I may never buy a Weapon and I may never want Weapon compatible accessories. It's an awkward place to be in. And the longer I'm in this awkward place of having no upgrade path or even at present a future *product* path within the RED ecosystem then I start getting a wandering eye. If Blackmagic can deliver a nearly 5k RAW, 60fps, 15 stops of dynamic range camera for $5k with monitor included and a $100 v-mount plate this year then what will they release next year? And holy crap, does RED even want to compete in that market anymore? Is the $17k camera the new "Soccer Mom Camera"? I still think that RED made the right decision by killing the 3k pocket cam. They just would have been overwhelmed competing with cheap chinese mass produced items. But... is that happening now in the midrange too? Am I no longer a profitable demographic to RED? They're not a charity and they don't owe me a camera in my price bracket if they lose money trying to sell a $24k camera that BlackMagic can sell for $8k.

I'm really hoping this isn't like a doomed long distance relationship. "I can't leave New York this job offer is too good! can't you move here!" "I have no job opportunities in New York, I would go broke! Don't go!" "But I have no job opportunities here in San Francisco. Wait for me it'll only be for a year or two!" "I want to wait, but I don't know if you'll ever come back and I can't put my life on hold on the off chance you come back!"

My REDVolts won't work with a Blackmagic camera, so it's in RED's best interest to keep me locked into their proprietary ecosystem. Strangely enough RED just pushed everybody out who doesn't upgrade to Weapon. If I want 2 monitors on Epic I have to use the +1 module which is for what it does a huge waste of space and won't fit on my really compact build or I have to buy a third party monitor that works with non-red cameras. With Weapon there are just 2 lemo plug locations so I'm encouraged to buy two RED monitors. The longer I have to wait for an affordable Weapon upgrade route the less likely I am to still be tied to RED accessories and the more third party pieces I'll have bought that can travel with me to a competitor easily.

So it's not like Scarlet of Epic are just less featured Weapons, they're a completely unrelated camera system that just happens to be sold by the same company. On Monday morning I was ready to sell off my 1.8" media or trade it in if there was a trade in plan, ditch my 5" touchscreen, ebay my top plate and see what sort of side-handle replacement RED announced. Instead I'm not sitting on my media in case a Weapon never comes along in my price range and I need to buy CFast cards for a BlackMagic 6k FF camera. I'm looking at picking up a SmallHD since it can run off of the SDI port instead of the second Lemo plug on the Weapon and I'm a little weary of upgrading to Weapon even if it was affordable since there is no SideHandle replacement. To continue the car analogies that everybody seems to be favoring, this is a bit like being a loyal Honda owner but then having Honda cancel the accord and only offer Lexuses for the 2016 model year. They're nice cars, but unless there is a 2017 Honda my next car will be a Toyota.

So there is more that I at least need than just a cheap body rehousing. I need a body rehousing that also offers a future with Weapon. So the rehousing needs to actually support all of the accessories and modules. And just as importantly there would need to be a commitment to offer a future to customers without $35k bodies. If RED did a one-time upgrade to Weapon and all I got was a rehoused body but then when Dragon2 is released I have to spend $20k to get onto the weapon hardware to afford the upgrade then I'm right back at the same place just 2 years later.

 

[Brent Carter]

... Even though I am going to take the deal to go Weapon Magnesium current (sooner if indeed what is said that the 5000 Credit can be converted to payment of the package)....

Sergio, lots of threads on the upgrade discussion. Hence, we have been working on a WEAPON "end all, be all" central on RED.com with all the pertinent info.

Just to clear up the credit thing in this thread...

If you are upgrading, you are getting a bundle that includes over $5000 of accessories for free. Meaning, your upgrade bundle is the same price someone else is paying for a brand new brain-only who is not an upgrader. That is, your Magnsium bundle includes brain plus a bunch of accessories that will allow you to combine with your exsiting AKS to create a functional WEAPON rig. That is $34,500 for that bundle.

The guy buying the new camera gets brain only for $34,500.

You get the $5000 accessory credit whenever you choose to upgrade. The "new guy on the block" gets $5000 for a certain period of time.

So, long story short, you cannot apply your $5000 accessory credit to your accessories as part of the bundle - you are already getting them for free!

This means after your WEAPON order is invoiced, you will receive an additional $5000 of credit to be used for future RED accessories of your choice. Media, rail parts, whatever.

Clear as mud?

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

I could buy a 7" monitor today but when I upgrade to Weapon I would want a Weapon compatible monitor. But then it's limited to Weapon. Or I could buy the Lemo 7" monitor today and then I wouldn't be able to take advantage of it with Weapon.

FWIW I think you could still buy the new WEAPON 7inch monitor and the lemo adapter and use on your EPIC until you move to WEAPON...

 

[Brent Carter]

FWIW I think you could still buy the new WEAPON 7inch monitor and the demo adapter and use on your EPIC until you move to WEAPON...

And the vice versa. The current 7" Touch LCD with Lemo can connect to WEAPON via the Lemo Adaptor included with the WEAPON upgrades...

 

[Milan S.]

Gavin, great post. Exactly where I'm at the moment.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I agree completely.

I would love to see Weapon AL but just rehousing current Epic Dragon brains doesn't make any sense other than maybe taking advantage of the new accessories and modules.
It needs to have the Weapon guts in order to be future proof, that's the reason most people are upgrading - not for the cosmetics.

If I understand correctly Weapon (magnesium) guts aren't future proof - they are not even one year proof (!) as they won't handle the 8K sensor due out at the end of the year which was what we were all excited about.


I upgraded to Dragon last year so wasn't bothered by the push to upgrade by NAB, but I think if Red is to understand the frustration surrounding this upgrade they need to consider a few things.

1) The Red1 to Epic-X was a pretty good deal all the way around: a better camera in every way and very attractive price and options to do full tradein or keep R1 AND upgrade to Epic-X as well. And given what I know about manufacturing costs I suspect that they still made very good money - given the very high percentage and number of people that bought into it - which would offset the cost of the custom ASICs required to create the DSMC form factor.

2) A lot of Red Owners were underwhelmed at the Dragon Sensor upgrade - I won't say we were hyped but I think we were led to believe that Dragon would be a better sensor in every way and particularly higher true native ISO (2000 IIRC) and an original price of $6000 and then it came out at $9000 with some significant issues (magenta smear, red dot, low iso in most situations, black shading hassles, seemingly a need for swapping OLPFs to get the expected performance) that not only disappointed some Red owners but tended to scare off quite a few producers - so there was some frustration and confusion before this new upgrade path.

3) And then those that hadn't upgraded to Dragon were hyped to upgrade before NAB with a combination of fear and anticipation - fear of being left behind and anticipation of a hot deal for the loyal base. And the vast majority that I hear seem to feel that it isn't a hot deal - it' may be a fair deal for a new body and for those that need the internal ProRes - but not much bang for the buck for most. And many of us that would normally be interested in the Full Frame (~36x24mm) are concerned about a $10000 price for the FF/VV sensor, much less the $20,000 if you didn't order this week and tie up another $10K for who knows how long. Given that there are multiple cameras and vendors with Full Frame sensors already at various resolutions and will have almost a year to respond to the Vista concept it is pretty scary to take that leap of faith sight unseen and no confidence when it will be available and debugged.

I've been here since the very beginning. I think in some ways it is hard to articulate what it is a lot of us are feeling. Maybe the crux of it is that there has been a true Red "community" and it seemed that in the past the community moved forward together for the most part and RED included everything they could at each waypoint. And now it seems like the community is being sliced and diced a bit.

And there is nothing inherently wrong with that - product differentiation and market segmentation is Marketing 101 and what most companies do - but I think that is also why most of us left Sony and Panasonic and became the community Redusers are. (Not sure about that grammar :wink

I don't have any specific suggestion of how to get around that - I would have to know more about your actual costs - but it does seem that, if something is not done, an era within this community will have passed.

 

[Chris Purka]

If I understand correctly Weapon (magnesium) guts aren't future proof - they are not even one year proof (!) as they won't handle the 8K sensor due out at the end of the year which was what we were all excited about.


And many of us that would normally be interested in the Full Frame (~36x24mm) are concerned about a $10000 price for the FF/VV sensor, much less the $20,000 if you didn't order this week and tie up another $10K for who knows how long. Given that there are multiple cameras and vendors with Full Frame sensors already at various resolutions and will have almost a year to respond to the Vista concept it is pretty scary to take that leap of faith sight unseen and no confidence when it will be available and debugged.

I think that the $20k price is more than fair. I paid $12,500 for my 6K dragon sensor. I wouldn't expect that a 8K FF sensor would be cheaper and I understand that larger sensors cost a lot more to make so I am totally fine with that price.

Yes there are other companies with full frame sensors but they are horrible for filming things with as they are sensors designed for stills and nothing close to 8K and nothing close to 8K at 60 frames per second in the size of most other cameras power supplies. Arri is probably the closest with their Alexa 65 6.5k sensor but that only runs 28 frames per second and it the size of 40 Weapons and weighs a ton. You also need to insure it for $250,000. Think about that price. RED may not do a very good job at marketing to the conservative types and they may not make a very good shoulder camera but one thing you can say is that they run circles around every other company out there in terms of engineering which you need to commend them for given their size.

I do agree with your comment about the high end getting all the love with this though. I think RED should of made a camera in the $25k range with the same body style that gave everyone an option to get into the new form factor. I think the biggest complaint is the jump from a $10,000 upgrade which almost everyone can agree with to a $20,000 upgrade that most people can't handle.

 

[Elsie N]

If I understand correctly Weapon (magnesium) guts aren't future proof - they are not even one year proof (!) as they won't handle the 8K sensor due out at the end of the year which was what we were all excited about.


I upgraded to Dragon last year so wasn't bothered by the push to upgrade by NAB, but I think if Red is to understand the frustration surrounding this upgrade they need to consider a few things.

1) The Red1 to Epic-X was a pretty good deal all the way around: a better camera in every way and very attractive price and options to do full tradein or keep R1 AND upgrade to Epic-X as well. And given what I know about manufacturing costs I suspect that they still made very good money - given the very high percentage and number of people that bought into it - which would offset the cost of the custom ASICs required to create the DSMC form factor.

2) A lot of Red Owners were underwhelmed at the Dragon Sensor upgrade - I won't say we were hyped but I think we were led to believe that Dragon would be a better sensor in every way and particularly higher true native ISO (2000 IIRC) and an original price of $6000 and then it came out at $9000 with some significant issues (magenta smear, red dot, low iso in most situations, black shading hassles, seemingly a need for swapping OLPFs to get the expected performance) that not only disappointed some Red owners but tended to scare off quite a few producers - so there was some frustration and confusion before this new upgrade path.

3) And then those that hadn't upgraded to Dragon were hyped to upgrade before NAB with a combination of fear and anticipation - fear of being left behind and anticipation of a hot deal for the loyal base. And the vast majority that I hear seem to feel that it isn't a hot deal - it' may be a fair deal for a new body and for those that need the internal ProRes - but not much bang for the buck for most. And many of us that would normally be interested in the Full Frame (~36x24mm) are concerned about a $10000 price for the FF/VV sensor, much less the $20,000 if you didn't order this week and tie up another $10K for who knows how long. Given that there are multiple cameras and vendors with Full Frame sensors already at various resolutions and will have almost a year to respond to the Vista concept it is pretty scary to take that leap of faith sight unseen and no confidence when it will be available and debugged.

I've been here since the very beginning. I think in some ways it is hard to articulate what it is a lot of us are feeling. Maybe the crux of it is that there has been a true Red "community" and it seemed that in the past the community moved forward together for the most part and RED included everything they could at each waypoint. And now it seems like the community is being sliced and diced a bit.

And there is nothing inherently wrong with that - product differentiation and market segmentation is Marketing 101 and what most companies do - but I think that is also why most of us left Sony and Panasonic and became the community Redusers are. (Not sure about that grammar :wink

I don't have any specific suggestion of how to get around that - I would have to know more about your actual costs - but it does seem that, if something is not done, an era within this community will have passed.

Nice summation.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Sergio, lots of threads on the upgrade discussion. Hence, we have been working on a WEAPON "end all, be all" central on RED.com with all the pertinent info.

Just to clear up the credit thing in this thread...

If you are upgrading, you are getting a bundle that includes over $5000 of accessories for free. Meaning, your upgrade bundle is the same price someone else is paying for a brand new brain-only who is not an upgrader. That is, your Magnsium bundle includes brain plus a bunch of accessories that will allow you to combine with your exsiting AKS to create a functional WEAPON rig. That is $34,500 for that bundle.

The guy buying the new camera gets brain only for $34,500.

You get the $5000 accessory credit whenever you choose to upgrade. The "new guy on the block" gets $5000 for a certain period of time.

So, long story short, you cannot apply your $5000 accessory credit to your accessories as part of the bundle - you are already getting them for free!

This means after your WEAPON order is invoiced, you will receive an additional $5000 of credit to be used for future RED accessories of your choice. Media, rail parts, whatever.

Clear as mud?

Understood Brent. So its 18.5K aprox (plus shipping) I need to pay for the upgrade, and I will have a ready to shoot package with spending the 5000 credit in cards and reader, and using red volts. Sounds about right. I can only go for this next January with a new personal loan!


EDIT- I am most confident in RED in that if I purchase the Magnesium, I won't need to fork out a fortune for the next step. This has to be the painful step, just like the Red One to Epic MX was.

 

[Philip Lanyon]

The thing that is killing me about the upgrade is the magnesium/carbon thing. If they are both roughly the same weight, why am I paying 13k more for carbon? Why not make them all carbon and charge 5k less and get twice as many upgrades? Or make them all magnesium and get 4 times the amount. I feel like I'm literally buying my way into a tier system and not physically getting something for it just so I can remain in the upgrade path.

 

[Phil Holland]

The thing that is killing me about the upgrade is the magnesium/carbon thing. If they are both roughly the same weight, why am I paying 13k more for carbon? Why not make them all carbon and charge 5k less and get twice as many upgrades? Or make them all magnesium and get 4 times the amount. I feel like I'm literally buying my way into a tier system and not physically getting something for it just so I can remain in the upgrade path.

The Carbon Weapon is more powerful in a few ways. Notably we currently see this in the 3D LUT support, ProRes frame rate (and maybe resolution), and data rate. I'm betting the family cow that it will also lead to a few other things later on as well because I have an active imagination of the potential here. Additionally you will need the horsepower of Carbon Weapon if you plan on going to the 8K Dragon Sensor with the given specs at present time.

Carbon Weapon is basically the premiere line that gets you the best of the best.

 

[Elsie N]

The Carbon Weapon is more powerful in a few ways. Notably we currently see this in the 3D LUT support, ProRes frame rate (and maybe resolution), and data rate. I'm betting the family cow that it will also lead to a few other things later on as well because I have an active imagination of the potential here. Additionally you will need the horsepower of Carbon Weapon if you plan on going to the 8K Dragon Sensor with the given specs at present time.

Carbon Weapon is basically the premiere line that gets you the best of the best.

I understand RED releasing the Carbon Weapon as an attractive money-pit for paying extra for early 8k fulfillment. What I don't understand is not putting the same internals in the Mag Weapon and just saying the CF Weapons will be upgraded to 8k Weapon first and Mag Weapons will follow later... sort of like selling the Epic M's and the CF Dragons... a profit leader to help finance the 2nd line of 8k upgrades.

Just sayin, do the 8k internals to the Mag Weapon now so anyone upgrading will feel like they are getting more than just a form factor change.

I want 8k but if I'm frozen out because of cost, then I'll have to stay at 6k or turn to a new RED-type camera maker to get me to 8k affordably... and that is something I never imagined I would ever (have to) say.

 

[Milan S.]

Nice summation.

Perfect summation.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

We haven't even seen the majority of this stuff being used - there are just celebrity pictures and videos of revolving products. Everything is still in-development as far as we're concerned - otherwise, you'd be able to buy these things right now.

Remember when there had to be enough complaints with the Dragon sensor upgrade not doing what it was supposed to? Recalls on bodies, retooling the design, and OLPF solutions that are just OK. Some people are just now receiving their backordered LLO OLPFs.

When will we actually get to the stage where upgrades don't feel like one enormous Kickstarter campaign? RED has been around long enough...

 

[Christopher Probst]

The Carbon Weapon is more powerful in a few ways. Notably we currently see this in the 3D LUT support, ProRes frame rate (and maybe resolution), and data rate. I'm betting the family cow that it will also lead to a few other things later on as well because I have an active imagination of the potential here. Additionally you will need the horsepower of Carbon Weapon if you plan on going to the 8K Dragon Sensor with the given specs at present time.

Carbon Weapon is basically the premiere line that gets you the best of the best.

Which is why I pulled the trigger on the Carbon Weapon first thing Monday... Can't come soon enough for me!

 

[Elsie N]

Which is why I pulled the trigger on the Carbon Weapon first thing Monday... Can't come soon enough for me!

Does Zeb know about this? '-)

 

[Brent Carter]

When will we actually get to the stage where upgrades don't feel like one enormous Kickstarter campaign? RED has been around long enough...

So your vote is we abolish upgrade campaigns moving forward? Copy that.

 

[Philip Lanyon]

The Carbon Weapon is more powerful in a few ways. Notably we currently see this in the 3D LUT support, ProRes frame rate (and maybe resolution), and data rate. I'm betting the family cow that it will also lead to a few other things later on as well because I have an active imagination of the potential here. Additionally you will need the horsepower of Carbon Weapon if you plan on going to the 8K Dragon Sensor with the given specs at present time.

Carbon Weapon is basically the premiere line that gets you the best of the best.

I understand that there are advantages to the carbon upgrade but they are advantages based on reds marketing, not based on what is physically achievable. Unless there is something i'm missing (heat distribution, thickness of materials.) the carbon guts could fit in a magnesium body no? I know this is the world we live in and corporations need to make money but it just feels like a bit of a kick in the pants.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

So your vote is we abolish upgrade campaigns moving forward? Copy that.

Brent, please ignore these outlying opinions. Thanks. Or, to paraphrase Jim, just invoke your right to refuse upgrades to certain people.

 

[Nook Kim]

I don't know much about Camera business, but..

If it seems like there are more people giving up on upgrading including long-time customers, Red could consider adjusting the price of Weapon CF 6K in order to increase the volume of sale.

If Weapon CF 6K is priced something like $25,000 to 35,000, many more people will continue to upgrade, many new people will buy fresh, and all of this added customers will bring Red much more money from accessories they will purchase.

In addition to this, Red won't need to think about creating another line of camera which will cost extra R&D and whatnot. I'm pretty certain you will also keep every loyal customers happy this way, too.

Thanks for listening.

Why not make them all carbon and charge 5k less and get twice as many upgrades? Or make them all magnesium and get 4 times the amount.