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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Observations...

Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
Jarred, I get Weapon is top-of-line. I don't want top-of-line. But I want to remain in play for key improvements I'd like to have for my on-set workflows. Your new accessories, the blackshading improvemements, the processing improvements that give us a better image (don't give a hoot for prores).
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You simply can't have better technology without better technology. You can quote me on that.

Every single thing on Weapon is a technological advancement. Everybody thinks the body material itself seems to be raising the prices, but are ignoring the additional cost of the processing power, design, and development of all of that new technology. It's not like you can take one feature out and suddenly the upgrade is $15K less expensive. That's not what's going on and not how that works.

Weapon is about making the most compact and fully capable production camera on the market. There are some who won't exactly "need" that. There are some who have been waiting on something just like that to arrive. We're seeing a bit of both it appears. Based on production trends Weapon is very smart. For some that don't care about things like ProRes, 3D LUT support, smaller camera bodies, improved compression ratios, improved image processing, improved black shading range, improved everything really you have Epic and Scarlet Dragon which are conveniently still Dragon 5K and 6K cameras :)

In order for RED to step through the doors of the future the "version 1" concepts of DSMC needed to evolved after about 5 years into "DSMC V2" which is Weapon. It's impossible in this industry to improve forever based on old tech.

Weapon is simply an addition to the Dragon family at the moment, but the power under the hood is paving the way for the future as well. What we are seeing today at NAB are what we know Weapon is today. And it looks like there's more information and features coming as well. These are the early days. However, it should be said. Dragon is still kicking the ass of much of the competing sensor technology out there. Color, Dynamic Range, and Resolution. Image is first and you get that with all Dragon bodies really.
 
I think the cost of the upgrade caught many of us off guard. I decided to upgrade as leap of faith since my Scarlet MX is overkill for most of my clients. I suppose I had a unrealistic hope that I could jump over the Epic and go straight to Weapon for somewhere around $15,000 to $20,000. $30,000 is simply too much for me and does not make economic sense.

Still waiting for my Scarlet to come back from it's upgrade so can't say if I feel I made a mistake or not. MX was good enough, but Dragon may make shoots easier and better. There is a lot of gear I could have had with the $9,500 I spent and still had my Scarlet MX. I am a grown man and made a decision I can live with. I was about to get a Sony FS7 but upgraded instead because I wanted to stay shooting raw and with the FS7 seems like you have to jump through hoops to get that, and the Dragon is a better camera. Perhaps I'll upgrade in the future, but certainly can't see spending $60,000 + for 8K. Prices will have to come down and frankly with already having a Scarlet Dragon, don't think I'll spend over $10,000 on any camera as the images are so good already.
 
Jarred Land said:
That is how it works. The $5000 accessory credit is for all of you that have Dragons before NAB and it is good to use until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon.. whenever that may be. That is one of the reasons why it was " worth it " to upgrade before NAB.

The $5000 accessory credit that is tied to NAB week is just for the new Weapon orders ( not upgrades ) .
Click to expand...

A few people has asked them same question so clarifying.

The $5000 accessory credit will be applied at the time your WEAPON order is invoiced (as stated on RED.com when you order). You don't pay the pre-order deposit and then immediately get the credit back, haha.

Also, based on questions and such, we will be updating RED.com with more clafications so you don't have to comb REDUSER to get information.
 
Phil Holland said:
In order for RED to step through the doors of the future the "version 1" concepts of DSMC needed to evolved after about 5 years into "DSMC V2" which is Weapon. It's impossible in this industry to improve forever based on old tech.
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Being a tech dude myself, i don't disagree with anything you've said, Phil.

But in the evolution, some of us are being left out because these evolutions will not be backward compatible to EPIC Dragon -- an upgrade I got not more than a year ago. With the understanding at the time that this was the future. Some (like myself) even expected a body evolution, but didn't think it'd be priced as high as it is.

Again, I'm not on a RED ONE (which still makes awesome images, agreed) and saying 'woe is me'. I upgraded to DRAGON recently and am suddenly finding I'm caught up in the 'no longer backward compatible with your platform' space.

I think there are options to consider should RED choose to pursue them. Will RED do so? Maybe not. Maybe. We just voice our feedback and that's about all we can do to shift RED's course. Hence, my post.
 
Of course I can't speak for RED but I'm pretty sure that DSMC V2 tech and format will trickle down towards Epic and Scarlet at some point.

The improvements are just too god and keeping 2 systems maintained slows you down. It seems logical.
 
Brent@RED said:
A few people has asked them same question so clarifying.

The $5000 accessory credit will be applied at the time your WEAPON order is invoiced (as stated on RED.com when you order). You don't pay the pre-order deposit and then immediately get the credit back, haha.

Also, based on questions and such, we will be updating RED.com with more clafications so you don't have to comb REDUSER to get information.
Click to expand...

RED should SERIOUSLY consider hiring a Clarity Czar.

Hearing directly from yourself, Jarred and Jim (occasionally) has its charm and appeal. But, with events like this, where everyone is busy getting ready for the show and being pulled in 10 different directions at once, there needs to be someone who can go over all official information and make sure it makes sense to the people who aren't already familiar with it.

There was way too much confusion, handwringing and freaking out surrounding upgrade pricing, eligibility and time frames that could've been avoided if info had been worded better or elaborated on.

Jarred getting on Reduser and clearing things up after a whole day of misinformation is cool but a whole day of misinformation does no one any good. It makes you seem like you've lost your minds and it makes people feel abandoned and betrayed.

The prices are the prices and better communication isn't going to make things more affordable for people. What it does accomplish is allow people to make rational decisions and see the benefits and drawbacks to what's actually being offered.

The Weapon announcement could've gone so much better for everyone had that happened. Clarity Czar (or whatever you want to call it). Think about it.
 
Brian Boyer said:
RED should SERIOUSLY consider hiring a Clarity Czar.

Hearing directly from yourself, Jarred and Jim (occasionally) has its charm and appeal. But, with events like this, where everyone is busy getting ready for the show and being pulled in 10 different directions at once, there needs to be someone who can go over all official information and make sure it makes sense to the people who aren't already familiar with it.

There was way too much confusion, handwringing and freaking out surrounding upgrade pricing, eligibility and time frames that could've been avoided if info had been worded better or elaborated on.

Jarred getting on Reduser and clearing things up after a whole day of misinformation is cool but a whole day of misinformation does no one any good. It makes you seem like you've lost your minds and it makes people feel abandoned and betrayed.

The prices are the prices and better communication isn't going to make things more affordable for people. What it does accomplish is allow people to make rational decisions and see the benefits and drawbacks to what's actually being offered.

The Weapon announcement could've gone so much better for everyone had that happened. Clarity Czar (or whatever you want to call it). Think about it.
Click to expand...

Revolutionaries don't have Clairty Czars. RED has been and will always have the "Rebel" company culture regardless of age and scale. For better or for worse ;-)

Plus it makes understanding any announcement or finding important operational information a treasure hunt / game show. Fun for hours!!
 
Zeb B said:
Revolutionaries don't have Clairty Czars. RED has been and will always have the "Rebel" company culture regardless of age and scale. For better or for worse ;-)

Plus it makes understanding any announcement or finding important operational information a treasure hunt / game show. Fun for hours!!
Click to expand...

I think the idea of someone pulling together REDS PR is a great idea. Not sure if your tongue is in your cheek when you say a rebellious company cant get PR together.
 
Phil, first let me express my total admiration for the work you do here on Redforum. I really don't know how you do it. Red should pay you a salary. :-)
But the way I read Nikhil post is more on the way that: Same way as now we have a Carbon Dragon and AL dragon, with identiacal spec and image qualities aside from the weight and sexy look factor, but the price is significantly higher on CF. Maybe something similar could happen on the weapon, but as i type this i realized that, that already happens, CF, MG. it is just that Al is missing in the equation:-)

But for instance when Epic came along, there was only a Ti Canon mount that it cost $2000. After a year or so an Aluminum mount was released for $500. Technology is identical, and for many the lack or robustness and heat tolerances wasnt an issue. Back then I couldn't wait for the Al. so I paid the premium. Some people didnt want to wait for the Epic X, so they bought the M version at a premium. But still they both were the same camera, same image, same technology, two very different prices. I think that's more what Nikhil is mentioning.

Now ,many of us are so happy with our Epic Dragons, that are willing to wait to see the future hoping for a more affordable Weapons, with similar technological qualities but without the premium of first delivery and or, light materials. This probably won't happen. Maybe because Red figured out a way to make the cost of an Carbon body or Mg. body similar to Aluminum, and it doesnt make sense to do Al, to make it few thousand cheaper. Or maybe it is that just because of the heat properties of Carbon or Magnesium make the image and compression ratios way better than Aluminum body so they don't want to cripple the quality. Or maybe it's just businesses; create a higher price cam, that if people want new features, sensors, needs to upgrade or stay with what they have. But probably by not jumping into new body systems most likely we wont have access to the new future sensors. Like people that stayed with redone MX.

I'd like to believe that's not the case, because we see CF brain and standard brain now. But Red has all the right to do and price their camera systems what they think it's best for their business and the future of the company. Many of us get emotional with this announcement but then realized what it is. I think it is that people like me that have been on this journey for a long time and were lucky to use this great piece of innovation to shape and improve our artistic/professional careers, maybe for the first time we feel that we can't keep up with it and that the new weapon system starts becoming more of a luxury item, and less of an indie camera like the redone used to be. But that is our problem, not Red ones. Red as a company doesn't owes us anything. It is just the whole way Red have been dealing with their fan base and customers from day one that sometimes it feels more like a family reunion than a business, for the good and the bad.

But one of the great things about the red (and maybe it sounds a bit childish) is that when we had our redones or Epics/scarlets, when we were shooting pictures, whether is our dog in the garden or commercials, or indie features, or art projects, not only the images out of these cameras are amizing but there was an aura of using the same equipment as the big guys. The best equipment. "Hey I'm shooting with the same camera that they shot the social network..." Well not really, I'm sure they didnt shoot on Canons, and maybe they had the CF bodies, :-) but the closeness into the image quality has never been closer from the big guys and the small guys.

But as Jim well said, we already have top of the line cameras with the Epics, and redones, and scarlets, so we are definitively set either way. Red has done their job on the indie world, maybe now it is time they take off and focus on the big ones or the people that can pay for a CF body, because I'm sure good things will come down to the indie world as well. And even if the newer bodies are more expensive and some people can't keep up with the upgrades I'm very happy for where we are at now. I'll focus on having people value and pay my work as a filmmaker and less for the camera I have. And as idealistic as it sounds I believe is the right path anyway. Easier said than done when we have to pay the bills, but the right way anyway.

Phil Holland said:
You simply can't have better technology without better technology. You can quote me on that.

Every single thing on Weapon is a technological advancement. Everybody thinks the body material itself seems to be raising the prices, but are ignoring the additional cost of the processing power, design, and development of all of that new technology. It's not like you can take one feature out and suddenly the upgrade is $15K less expensive. That's not what's going on and not how that works.

Weapon is about making the most compact and fully capable production camera on the market. There are some who won't exactly "need" that. There are some who have been waiting on something just like that to arrive. We're seeing a bit of both it appears. Based on production trends Weapon is very smart. For some that don't care about things like ProRes, 3D LUT support, smaller camera bodies, improved compression ratios, improved image processing, improved black shading range, improved everything really you have Epic and Scarlet Dragon which are conveniently still Dragon 5K and 6K cameras :)

In order for RED to step through the doors of the future the "version 1" concepts of DSMC needed to evolved after about 5 years into "DSMC V2" which is Weapon. It's impossible in this industry to improve forever based on old tech.

Weapon is simply an addition to the Dragon family at the moment, but the power under the hood is paving the way for the future as well. What we are seeing today at NAB are what we know Weapon is today. And it looks like there's more information and features coming as well. These are the early days. However, it should be said. Dragon is still kicking the ass of much of the competing sensor technology out there. Color, Dynamic Range, and Resolution. Image is first and you get that with all Dragon bodies really.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Jarred for clarification. That is really a awesome opportunity. And I trust you 150 Percent!!!

But I got an email today from my Bomb-Squad, that the $5000 accessory credit is only valid if i order during NAB and pay now the deposit.

Jarred Land said:
I have a feeling you are not the only one... I just clarified that a bit on the post.

Your $5000 accessory credit will remain until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon, and is not limited to NAB week.
Click to expand...
 
Donald MJ Anderson said:
I think the idea of someone pulling together REDS PR is a great idea. Not sure if your tongue is in your cheek when you say a rebellious company cant get PR together.
Click to expand...

Folks sometimes have a hard time accepting RED as a total package. Can't have it a la carte. It's not a normal market driven company - it's Jim's company and he runs it his way. Take it or leave it. For the most part we benefit from that singular leadership / vision model. Other times it's a bumpy ride. You just need to accept the whole package . . . even if that means no 4K ProRes or information chaos . . . or use something else. The core of RED is not changing. I've seen several product introductions over the years. They are always an out of control circus act but the product is cool in the end. The fog will clear before end of NAB.
 
Jarred Land said:
That is how it works. The $5000 accessory credit is for all of you that have Dragons before NAB and it is good to use until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon.. whenever that may be. That is one of the reasons why it was " worth it " to upgrade before NAB.

The $5000 accessory credit that is tied to NAB week is just for the new Weapon orders ( not upgrades ) .
Click to expand...

If we got a Scarlet Dragon before NAB, can we upgrade to Epic Dragon now, and still get the accessories credit if we upgrade to Weapon later?
 
Just read Freya's column on RedShark News and learned the 8k Weapon will do something like 75 frames per second. Haven't seen that information anywhere in the 3,744 posts I've read about Weapon in the past few days.
 
Red finally took a page out of Arri's book and added Prores 2k...and they did it at an Arri price.

But, Arri doesn't do trade-ins. And for that I give RED big props on providing that option to its loyal customer base. Even though I'm choosing not to upgrade this time. Thank you
 
Zeb B said:
Revolutionaries don't have Clairty Czars. RED has been and will always have the "Rebel" company culture regardless of age and scale. For better or for worse ;-)

Plus it makes understanding any announcement or finding important operational information a treasure hunt / game show. Fun for hours!!
Click to expand...


WHAT A HORRIBLE RESPONSE TO A GREAT POST!!!
 
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