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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

"numerically honest 4k", Sony backhanded slap at Red

Roberto Lequeux said:
Though even the name is hinting at offensive, and I hate that. F65? This is S35 camera!!

F23: 2/3 sensor area
F35: S35 sensor area
F65: S35 sensor area?!?!?

Right?
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Maybe they think the quality is equal to that of 65mm film, maybe it's twice as good as the F35 and maybe it's that the f35 name was taken already and they wanted a name that said this is the next level up.
In any case, who cares!
 
Let me say it one more time: Go Sony! For getting into the 4k boat, finally.

Sony makes wonderful images, I just don't see a benefit here (though I haven't seen a back to back 4k projection of the same shots with the same lenses by both cameras).

Deanan said:
Since it's a rotated bayer, it's easier to compare with other bayer sensors if you look at the numbers rotated back.

Rotating back, the horizontal pixel count is ~5700 and the total pixel count they say is visible equals 17.69 megapixels.

How they set their OLPF and do they bayer processing will determine how the camera responds to aliasing, DOF fallof, etc. which will in turn affect how much actual resolution is visible vs false resolution from aliasing.

No doubt they'll be able to extract 4k from 5700 pixel width.
Likewise, Epic does also from it's 5120.

Having another 4k camera is better for everyone.
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The array can be oriented in any which way, but the photosite count is the photosite count. 5.7k by something... so 5.7k is the "k-number" for this sensor. The other relevant spec is the aspect ratio of the sensor.

Of course debayer is just as important as photosite count, but there is no way to pull 8k out of 5.7k... so either I am missing something or the 8k thing is the most hypocritical thing I have ever seen after everyone got on Red for calling their cameras 4k-cameras when the first sensors had over 4k photosites, and when they are right up against the threshold of maximum resolved detail possible, with something like 80% making it into their recordings.

Look, I can't say it enough. Sony getting into the mix means 4k theatrical distribution is a lock, if it wasn't already. It is at the very least going to come sooner than expected. So thank you Sony for putting your resources towards that! And Sony makes beautiful images!

I just don't see anything on the F65 that excites me... at all. There might be something there, just too small for a Writer-Director to notice, even for one as geeky as myself.

Are there DR specs released? If so I missed those.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
All of their F65 marketing feels a bit offensive, but then again so does 75% of all marketing...

0.002
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"No truer words ...". :bigsmile:

As you say, Sony has been making pretty nice pictures for a long time and they aren't simply going to fold up their tent. They will come up with something that makes sense for their existing customers and only time will tell if they come up with something that will truly push the envelope, but at least red has succeeded in both setting the bar to a new level and getting out in front of the wave.
 
Jannard said:
While some camera companies say that 2K (and 1080P) is good enough... they are currently working on a 4K solution. And when they release it, I'll be quite curious how they figure out how to ignore what they said.

Jim
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They may truly believe it, but the consumers are saying otherwise with their wallets. You gotta go with the flow to stay in business! :)
 
F65 will be a worthy competitor for Epic. The detachable "T-block" or whatever they call it could conceivably come in handy for 3D rigs, for example. It can be tethered on a 50-foot fiber cable.

The data rates are scary, but what option does Sony have? I believe that Jim holds a pretty clear patent on compressed RAW for video, doesn't he?

Because I don't understand exactly how the F65 works, I wonder if moire will be an issue?
 
Is that the high framerate mode, or is high framerate mode 2K?
 
Tom Lowe said:
F65 will be a worthy competitor for Epic. The detachable "T-block" or whatever they call it could conceivably come in handy for 3D rigs, for example. It can be tethered on a 50-foot fiber cable.
Click to expand...

So do you buy a T head camera or the regular one? Or both?
 
Tom.Wong said:
it's an 8k sensor, doing a live debayer in camera to 4k. dunno where you got 5.7k from.
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17mp sensor (no not 20mp as only 17mp are used to make the image) is only enough on a bayer pattern to make a 5.7k image, no more. Sony arrange those pixels in a configuration which is rotated from traditional bayer through 45 degrees (as we've all discussed before) and hence has enough pixels for a 4k array in that arrangement, or as I said, 5.7k in a traditional bayer arrangement. No amount of work on the math gives you enough pixels for an 8k image (while retaining the aspect ratio). Sony's talk of 8k is pure marketing.

Graeme
 
Spend a fraction, get an sensor-upgradable body with a (WAY) faster processor --one already suited to actually handle ~8k 24fps! Then when 645 Mostro sensor upgrades come along... you'll be smiling to yourself saying: "Finally, a real digital 65".

BTW, you can practically expect 15-stops of DR to be included by then. Jannard said Red is already working on Mostro, and that is not marketing... as evidenced by the multiple LEAPS they've announced, and then taken on successfully. That's him letting us know as much as he can, without hurting the company.
 
Tom Lowe said:
? I believe that Jim holds a pretty clear patent on compressed RAW for video, doesn't he?
Click to expand...
*cough* cineform *cough*

Not unless he bought it off of one of dozens of other companies that were already offering it. Wavelet + Bayer Pattern wasn't exactly a new concept.
 
Robert Frank said:
I am fairly certain that RED was awarded a patent for REDCODE Raw.
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They do, but no one can patent the idea of compressing RAW data, for video or otherwise. Using wavelets or otherwise. A specific method for compressing RAW data for video? Sure! And that's what RED has done. It seems highly likely that REDRAW is some kind of interframe codec (otherwise, "trimming" R3Ds would have been trivial and supported from day one). I'd love to see a link to the actual patent if anyone's got it.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Spend a fraction, get an sensor-upgradable body with a (WAY) faster processor --one already suited to actually handle ~8k 24fps! Then when 645 Mostro sensor upgrades come along... you'll be smiling to yourself saying: "Finally, a real digital 65".

BTW, you can practically expect 15-stops of DR to be included by then. Jannard said Red is already working on Mostro, and that is not marketing... as evidenced by the multiple LEAPS they've announced, and then taken on successfully. That's him letting us know as much as he can, without hurting the company.
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Agreed. It's not exciting enough for me to ever be serious about buying one ... however, I do believe this will be the second best camera out there once it's released. And compared to anything else I saw at NAB that was not Epic ... I felt like what I saw in Sony's 4k screening room was pretty nice. Like you, I'm happy they are entering 4k acquisition -- and happy that another higher resolution camera is going to help raise the bar on what's acceptable going forward.

PS - I'd be much more excited about Leica making a set of full set T1.9 primes for the Epic 645 ... like the Panavisions, only smaller :P
 
Graeme Nattress said:
17mp sensor (no not 20mp as only 17mp are used to make the image) is only enough on a bayer pattern to make a 5.7k image, no more. Sony arrange those pixels in a configuration which is rotated from traditional bayer through 45 degrees (as we've all discussed before) and hence has enough pixels for a 4k array in that arrangement, or as I said, 5.7k in a traditional bayer arrangement. No amount of work on the math gives you enough pixels for an 8k image (while retaining the aspect ratio). Sony's talk of 8k is pure marketing.

Graeme
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There were two announcements, one saying that sensor is 17MP at 45 deg with more than 20% extra pixels in both, vertical and horizontal axis.
Second announcement was that there will be 8K x 2K sensor.

I still can’t get it why only 2K pixels they choose for vertical resollution?

This will give only about 1.6K “honest” resolution in vertical axis for 2:1 format and for 16:9 format it will limit the resolution to only 2.8K of “honest resolution” horizontally, since you can’t use any more horizontal pixels if you limit yourself to 1.6K vertically.

I don’t think Sony would do it and all these reports are not accurate.
 
Erich Ocean said:
It seems highly likely that REDRAW is some kind of interframe codec (otherwise, "trimming" R3Ds would have been trivial and supported from day one). I'd love to see a link to the actual patent if anyone's got it.
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It's not intraframe. ... it was trivialish. (Just opened a trimmed file from a couple years ago... still works in redcine!)
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
It's not intraframe. ... it was trivialish. (Just opened a trimmed file from a couple years ago... still works in redcine!)
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Hmm, I thought trimming wasn't supported until around a year ago... Was there some other way to do it, other than Redcine-X when you did it "a couple years ago"? Genuinely interested to know what the other options are...

The best info I could find on RED not support trimming, and that it was being "worked on" is here: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...ited-R3D-files&p=573781&viewfull=1#post573781

It may very well be intraframe only, and adding trimming was simple. But I'm certain the version in RedRay is interframe (that's the only way I can think of to get data rates that low), and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable that REDCODE would be interframe as well.
 
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