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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

No excuse for 5K@24P on Scarlet

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Ok...

This discussion seems just so silly.

But if you wondered, i don't feel very threatened, as I do not rent.
Whatever the outcome is, it does. Not affect my business or work.

I still think this request is silly.

But what thw fuck do i know.
 
I understand about the Asics and their marginal differences in production........ but what about the rest of the differences between epic and scarlet. I mean it was said in the scarlet announcement thread that there was other components left out
Could that be the reason that scarlet is at its threshold?


("How can you offer Scarlet-X at this price when EPIC is so much more?
Data rates and processing power. ASICs that weren't fast enough for EPIC… just became a gold mine for Scarlet.This, and board component reduction, allows us to lower the data rate throughput and significantly reduce our costs over volume.

Why can't I shoot 24fps 4K HDRx?
Data rates and processing power. *We are working on a future version of HDRx with modified compression to enable this possibility. It will be a firmware upgrade and free.")

On the other hand I would love to see the promised 4K HDRx
 
You guys still don't get it.
What Peter is trying to say is WiTh The current power scarlet has, please add another ratio.
Is that so hard to understand?
He is not asking for MORE power.
Epic got 5k WS 120fps. It was 5k 96.
So ok, you have to return your Epic because you didn't pay for this. You paid for 5k 96.
It's just stupid.
Peter is absolutely right in asking this.

Gunleik I really respect you, for your comments and work but I don't get your position in all this.
Why do you think it shouldn't happen?
Why is it silly?
Really intrigued.
 
Peter Majtan said:
A. Please drop the MORE. This is borderline arrogant to keep saying we want MORE when I have explained so clearly that we are not asking for MORE. If You call adding alternative picture modes within the same HW specs as MORE - then EPIC has received more of a MORE and nobody has asked EPIC guys to pay $19K for it...

B. Re-read this thread from start. The insult hurling came from (some) Epic owners - which turned them into "elitists". Not the other way round...

C. ASICs are not mechanical engines where manufacturing can make huge differences on performance. They either work or they don't. The variances are very tiny - certainly not 90% as some have suggested. Maybe up to 5%, if that... But this argument is pointless since we are not asking for MORE. The current ASIC in Scarlet can "squeeze" out of the SAME Epic sensor 4K (4096 x 2160) @ 30 FPS. We are not asking for MORE then this. Epic is the living proof that dropping vertical resolution allows for higher frame-rates. Hence the 5K WS mode at 120 FPS...

So please - unless you have something constructive to add to this discussion - drop the 'epic' excuses (pun very much intended), unwarranted advices to purchase Epic instead and the insults...

Peter
Click to expand...

Sorry Peter. I was definitely not trying to be arrogant with the use of "more". Just seemed like pretty simple facts to me. I bought a 4K camera.

Sure do wish I never even posted on this thread....just had been getting annoyed at seeing it keep coming to the top of recent posts...and now I've done it again :)

-dane
 
I wish Red had something to say.
It has to be 3 things:

1. Scarlet doesn't have the power.( with an explanation cause the bandwidth is the same)
2. We have to protect Epic by keeping it the only 5k camera.
3. We don't want to.
 
If it is number one, that's fine, just explain it and we are good, end of discussion.
This is not a demand, I love my Scarlet, it allows me to express my work in a way I never could, only through big paying renting jobs.
If it can be better by code writing only, then why not ?
 
DL Fitch said:
I don't know much about ASIC vs FPGA,.
Click to expand...

While the logic itself in an ASIC is "burned in", that does not mean an ASIC cannot essentially "run a program" that is contained in (say) SRAM that can substantially govern its behavior.
Definitely more limited changed in behavior than with an FPGA but can be remarkably flexible.

The problem with ASIC's is the turnaround time and validation (especially if validation errors require a respin ....). Turnaround time being so long means you really need to be able to distill a problem down to its common and most useful "elements" to get the most flexibility later on ....
 
Peter Majtan said:
Oh really? Do You care to elaborate how did You come to this conclusion/answer?
Click to expand...

Because they more or less went over that on Nov 3 2011, when it launched, mentioning Scarlet was inferior hardware and sensor.

On a side note, I would LOL if Red took the people up on their suggestion from this thread, disabled 4k and only left a 2/3" crop at 3k option on their Scarlet body, like the original was supposed to be.
 
And about all the ASIC woodoo....

You guys keep ignoring the fact that while Epic ASIC is different from Scarlet ASIC - they are based on the same technology and design.
Jim have said that R&D done at first (understandably) on EPIC will directly benefit Scarlet (within the limits of its HW). They have even mentioned something to the tune of the code base being identical...

So here you have Epic. Based on 5K Mysterium-X sensor and DSMC architecture (ASIC-based). It was released with 5K FF at 96 FPS. Recently it received 5K WS mode addition (amongst other formats) that allows the 5K to be boosted to 120 FPS while sacrificing vertical resolution...
Scarlet has the very same 5K Mysterium-X sensor and the very same DSMC architecture (ASIC-based). It was released with 5K FF at 12 FPS...

Clearly it is a logical and safe assumption to expect the Scarlet to be able to handle the 5K WS mode at higher frame rates just like the Epic. The current HW limitations of the Scarlet suggest it should be able to do so at 24P while sacrificing vertical resolution to fit in its HW limitation...
But even if this was "somehow" not possible - clearly the Scarlet is capable to capture higher resolution out of its 5K sensor at 24P. If it can't do 5K-WS - give us 4.75K-WS. Or even 4.5K-WS. Any little bit extra will drastically improve the finished 4K imagery...

RED listens - so we ask - and within reason...

Peter
 
Donald Strubler said:
Because they more or less went over that on Nov 3 2011, when it launched, mentioning Scarlet was inferior hardware and sensor.
Click to expand...

Are You really this thick? We all know Scarlet is inferior to Epic. We are not asking it to do what Epic does. We are asking it to do what Scarlet does... :banghead:
And for the record - would You mind to point out where it says Scarlet sensor is inferior to Epic. Last time I have heard from Jim and everyone else at RED - the sensors are identical...

Donald Strubler said:
On a side note, I would LOL if Red took the people up on their suggestion from this thread, disabled 4k and only left a 2/3" crop at 3k option on their Scarlet body, like the original was supposed to be.
Click to expand...

And sell it at $3K... And they should disable all the new features of the Epic as well while they are at it - since they were not originally announced. Kiss good bye all the WS formats. Kiss good bye the HDRx...

Really - if You have nothing constructive to add - please leave your "smart" comments to yourself...

Peter
 
Björn Benckert said:
Do you scarlet guys have 4k WS?
That would give better frame rates or at least less compression...
Click to expand...

Hi Björn, no - we don't. Only the 1K-WS for now...
But this is not about frame-rates or compression ratios. This is about over-sampling acquisition for 4K delivery. It is about Jim's "why 5K is so important for 4K deliverables"...

We have a 5K FF - but only at 12 FPS. If we could have 5K-WS - it should handle it at 24 FPS. This would allow us to debayer to true 4K for delivery...

Peter
 
Lee Saxon said:
Why is everyone being such a jerk to Peter?!
Click to expand...

Huh? according to recent posts if you dont agree with him, one is thick or lacks mathematical skills...etc etc its obvious that RED doesnt respond to the plea perhaps they are thick as well?
 
sergio arguello said:
Huh? according to recent posts if you dont agree with him, one is thick or lacks mathematical skills...etc etc its obvious that RED doesnt respond to the plea perhaps they are thick as well?
Click to expand...

You gotta love it when people are trying to put words in your mouth...

And with all due respect that I have run out of - people who do not read the thread they are responding to and keep repeating the same nonsense over and over even thou it has been clarified and explained dozens of times - are thick. And I am being polite - a lot more then they are. You Sergio are a prime example...

Peter
 
i truly admire peter's patience and dedication to making a very valid point....
but at this point i would call it a day if only stop the abuse....
the answer is in RED's hands....i am sure they know....and somehow i have a feeling all this will be brought into the light when/if a dragon path for scarlet is announced....
 
paul schefz said:
i truly admire peter's patience and dedication to making a very valid point....
but at this point i would call it a day if only stop the abuse....
the answer is in RED's hands....i am sure they know....and somehow i have a feeling all this will be brought into the light when/if a dragon path for scarlet is announced....
Click to expand...

I think Paul is right. I also think it's important for RED to know that Scarlet owners want a camera that can create full 4k content (my tests show the scarlet is around 3k on color frequency and about 2.7k on phase[exactly where the pixel is]). I do think RED's learning a lot during their power analysis for the new build and also their study of how to put the dragon into the scarlet, so i expect them to explain their full 4k approach for the scarlet around January. I'm positive RED would love to get 5k or 4k at redcode 3:1 for us scarlet owners, it's just a huge challenge.

My film that's in production,"Puddles of Light", is being shot for 2k DCP, and I'm amazed that with a micro budget I have the same tools to make a movie like "prometheus", "girl with dragon tatoo" and hugo(scarlet stats end up being around the same as the alexa). The tools I have are way more then my craft, so my scarlet is challenging me as a DP and Director. I'm going to worry about 4k somewhere in late 2013 when I start doing test for my next film, if someone right now NEEDS to make a 4k film ... they should get an epic.
 
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