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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

No excuse for 5K@24P on Scarlet

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Peter Majtan said:
I frankly do not believe that pleasing ALL Epic owners (which has proven to be impossible) is the reason why Scarlet does not have this mode. I believe it is because they are simply soo busy with all the other stuff (REDRAY, projector, Dragon, etc...), it is hard to squeeze the time and resources (and it is human resources, rather then $$$) to implement this properly into Scarlet...

Peter
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It has nothing to do with the fact that the Asics are too slow........?
 
Timur Civan said:
It has nothing to do with the fact that the Asics are too slow........?
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Well, I guess Red kept the best asics of the ones not fitting the epic. It would be strange to eliminate all the ones that can make the epic go to 5k 24fps, 48fps, or 60fps, throw them away, and just keep the ones that can go up to 5k 12fps.
There's probably some other hardware elements involved to get the power though. But I imagine Red guys think about the future, and I'm pretty sure 4.5k possibility was in their thought when they made the scarlet.
 
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Well, why not this scenario.

Imagine the spec on an Epic, the most an epic can pump out is 5K Full frame at 96FPs.

Now lets say, hypothetically, a non Epic spec "bad" asic can only carry 87Fps at 5K, yet another only 20FPS in 5K, and another 35FPS in 5K.... meanwhile i'm sure the boards have other responsibilities, OS, power management, recording, compression, Auto Focus/Iris engagement for canon lenses etc....

If I were a camera company, and I knew my bottom rung "bad" asic can only spit out 20FPS at its peak, and i wanted to make another camera, i would NEVER set its max FPS at 20FPS. ITs not reliable. The chips need over head to do other things and you never want to run a chip at full power. I'm fairly certain, a majority of scarlets could physically record 5K close to 96 FPS. If the lower range ones can only do 20, then they all get capped at 12. This isn't to screw anyone over, its for YOUR safety. So YOU the scarlet owner, who paid for a 4k 30FPS camera, 5K 12FPS camera can get that 100% reliably all the time.

It's like when the HVX200 frame rate hack came out. I hacked my camera, and got every frame rate between 2fps and 60, just like the "more expensive" Varicam. And the Rhetoric of the day was the same.... How dare Panasonic hold back! blah blah...

Well you know what happened? my camera locked up, I lost footage and I voided my warranty by performing the hack. Lesson learned. You have to realize, that the FPS combination and Resolutions are there for a reason. Your protection.

I'm not saying its bad to say "wouldn't it be cool if"... but stop and think for a second. How pissed would you be, if RED made a new firmware that gives 30FPS in 5K FF, but only 70% of the scarlets can run it safely? How fair is that then?
 
Timur Civan said:
Well, why not this scenario.

Imagine the spec on an Epic, the most an epic can pump out is 5K Full frame at 96FPs.

Now lets say, hypothetically, a non Epic spec "bad" asic can only carry 87Fps at 5K, yet another only 20FPS in 5K, and another 35FPS in 5K.... meanwhile i'm sure the boards have other responsibilities, OS, power management, recording, compression, Auto Focus/Iris engagement for canon lenses etc....

If I were a camera company, and I knew my bottom rung "bad" asic can only spit out 20FPS at its peak, and i wanted to make another camera, i would NEVER set its max FPS at 20FPS. ITs not reliable. The chips need over head to do other things and you never want to run a chip at full power. I'm fairly certain, a majority of scarlets could physically record 5K close to 96 FPS. If the lower range ones can only do 20, then they all get capped at 12. This isn't to screw anyone over, its for YOUR safety. So YOU the scarlet owner, who paid for a 4k 30FPS camera, 5K 12FPS camera can get that 100% reliably all the time.

It's like when the HVX200 frame rate hack came out. I hacked my camera, and got every frame rate between 2fps and 60, just like the "more expensive" Varicam. And the Rhetoric of the day was the same.... How dare Panasonic hold back! blah blah...

Well you know what happened? my camera locked up, I lost footage and I voided my warranty by performing the hack. Lesson learned. You have to realize, that the FPS combination and Resolutions are there for a reason. Your protection.

I'm not saying its bad to say "wouldn't it be cool if"... but stop and think for a second. How pissed would you be, if RED made a new firmware that gives 30FPS in 5K FF, but only 70% of the scarlets can run it safely? How fair is that then?
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well said. My take is this.... if you want these features out of your scarlet, it's not happening. So we can either deal with the specs RED promised and delivered in the scarlet, or sell it and move up to an EPIC. with the new prices, they have made it a real option for those who worked their scarlets. I recently made the switch and couldn't be happier.
 
Then there would really be a problem with asics if some are capable of 96fps and others only 12. That's a huge gap. 84 frames in 5k per second. They are supposed to all be good enough for the epic in the beginning.
Well I would just be happy with 4.5k in a 2.4 ratio. That's enough for me. I just feel like the cropped sensor makes my scarlet a fake s35 format camera sometimes. But the more i read the epic owners comments that don't want to understand what it is about in this thread, and just get pissed off for nothing, the more it's funny to ask for more.
 
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sam karr said:
Then there would really be a problem with asics if some are capable of 96fps and others only 12. That's a huge gap. 84 frames in 5k per second. They are supposed to all be good enough for the epic in the beginning.
Well I would just be happy with 4.5k in a 2.4 ratio. But the more i read the epic owners comments that don't want to understand what it is about in this thread, and just get pissed off for nothing, the more it's funny to ask for more.
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Well i dont know, thats why its hypothetical.

Infact, I was scarlet owner only 4 months ago.
 
Let's reverse the problem. If you have an epic, and think that 4.5k with 2.4 ratio at 24fps (even 5k 24fps 2.4 at 7:1) can compete and endanger your epic, maybe you should have just stayed with a scarlet, that's probably because you don't see or need the advantages of all the power of the epic.
 
Yeah, it's hard to imagine what could go so wrong during fabrication that would reduce a ASIC to just 10% of it's intended performance, without rendering it completely unstable... pretty sure if Intel had just fabricated a 300mhz i7, they'd toss it in the trash.

One thing I don't thing that's been mentioned in this thread is the fact that Scarlet has a much slower sensor readout than Epic, which may be a better indicator of it's maximum performance. Nobody likes rolling shutter effects, and I'm sure RED did everything they could to get that readout as fast as possible - even if they were (hypothetically) crippling the Scarlet in every other possible way. Also, if that readout time has increased at all from previous builds (14ms I think was the final consensus in one thread), then it would be a good sign that the camera isn't yet maxed out.
 
My work demanded high speed. For the last couple years its been all feature, shorts, and the occasional commercial. The Scarlet was fine. Now a days its all technology commercials and Fashion films/commercials. High speed is a must. This is what justified the jump. I wound up renting an epic for every job for 4 months, with my scarlet sitting at home. 5k24p wouldnt have made a lick of difference.
 
Has the readout rate difference been proven anywhere? I did see a shot of a fan blade, but it looked a bit non-conclusive.

DL Fitch said:
Yeah, it's hard to imagine what could go so wrong during fabrication that would reduce a ASIC to just 10% of it's intended performance, without rendering it completely unstable... pretty sure if Intel had just fabricated a 300mhz i7, they'd toss it in the trash.

One thing I don't thing that's been mentioned in this thread is the fact that Scarlet has a much slower sensor readout than Epic, which may be a better indicator of it's maximum performance. Nobody likes rolling shutter effects, and I'm sure RED did everything they could to get that readout as fast as possible - even if they were (hypothetically) crippling the Scarlet in every other possible way. Also, if that readout time has increased at all from previous builds (14ms I think was the final consensus in one thread), then it would be a good sign that the camera isn't yet maxed out.
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In the same thread as the fan tests, there's some pretty conclusive panning tests.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...for-Scarlet&highlight=scarlet+rolling+shutter

Of course you've also got people quoting Graeme's tweet that there's 'no difference' between Epic and Scarlet... but even the fan shots make it pretty clear that isn't the case.

With a readout time of 14ms, Scarlet could theoretically shoot something like 71 frames per second at 4k before the sensor couldn't keep up - but the skewing in a pan shot would be as great as the distance panned. Maybe the limit is more about what looks good coming off the Scarlet hardware, and not what's technically possible?
 
I think people in this thread need to chill out a little bit and have a little respect for other people on this forum as well as Red.

People make the choices they make when they purchase these cameras for a myriad of different reasons.

I know there are people that own some of these cameras that have strong personalities and opinions, that's fine. But it's downright offensive when you group the people that own an Epic into the moniker "elitists". It's also offensive for people to say Scarlet owners are looking for "handouts".

Even if another company released a camera with specs that were better and the general concensus agreed, I'd still go with Red.

I'd much rather work with someone I can call on the phone and develop a working relationship with when I have an issue than attempting the same thing with another company who act like they're doing you a favor by even talking to you. It's also nice to have a forum that allows communication with critical people in the company. I think people should be mindful of that, it's a rare thing and should be savored.

With that being said, I'm not going to tell anyone that they should've bought an Epic if they wanted 5K@24P. If you buy a piece of hardware like this that is constantly being updated than it's always a possibility I suppose. But, I wouldn't plan of it necessarily either. When you make a purchase you should be taking into account what the system is currently capable of and use that as the basis of reason for purchase. If the camera didn't meet its original specs, then you have every right to complain. But to purchase a product, and then create a thread with a heading that states there's "no excuse" for the company to not include a feature they never definitively said they would.... well.... that rings sort of false.

Red put the specs on the site for the Scarlet. That was their initial agreement with the consumer that bought this camera, and that's what you should expect and be happy with. If you're unhappy with that or find it inadequate, then you made a poor purchasing decision and have no one to blame but yourself. If Red promised more down the line, then odds are that they'll make good with that promise.

No one is entitled to 5K @24P.

If it happens, then be happy! If it's not, then still be happy!
 
If you bought a Scarlet then you bought a 4k motion camera/5k stills camera. It doesn't matter if it's more capable than that. The product you bought is not more than that.

If you want more, than you buy the next product in REDs line that offers more, the EPIC.

Seems pretty simple to me

-dane
 
A. Please drop the MORE. This is borderline arrogant to keep saying we want MORE when I have explained so clearly that we are not asking for MORE. If You call adding alternative picture modes within the same HW specs as MORE - then EPIC has received more of a MORE and nobody has asked EPIC guys to pay $19K for it...

B. Re-read this thread from start. The insult hurling came from (some) Epic owners - which turned them into "elitists". Not the other way round...

C. ASICs are not mechanical engines where manufacturing can make huge differences on performance. They either work or they don't. The variances are very tiny - certainly not 90% as some have suggested. Maybe up to 5%, if that... But this argument is pointless since we are not asking for MORE. The current ASIC in Scarlet can "squeeze" out of the SAME Epic sensor 4K (4096 x 2160) @ 30 FPS. We are not asking for MORE then this. Epic is the living proof that dropping vertical resolution allows for higher frame-rates. Hence the 5K WS mode at 120 FPS...

So please - unless you have something constructive to add to this discussion - drop the 'epic' excuses (pun very much intended), unwarranted advices to purchase Epic instead and the insults...

Peter
 
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