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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

No excuse for 5K@24P on Scarlet

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Peter Moretti said:
Peter,

What is going on? You have always seemed like the most level headed and reasonable of persons. I remember back to our PM's about Kurosawa :).

But now you are accusing Red of deliberately crippling Scarlet. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know the answer. But you are saying that you do. And that's pretty out there.

And as was mentioned above, just b/c the "pipes" are the same size does not necessarily mean that 5K feasible. Remember that the 5K needs to be debayerd (for the display and output). Debayering is processor intensive. So perhaps Scarlet can reliably debayer 4K but not 5K. I honestly have no idea if that's the case, but neither do you.

I think it's also just bad form to demand more when the Scarlet has already been a hands down winner for its price by a such wide margin.

So I'm left really confused. Don't feel the need to explain, as I've read your posts. Anyway, still all the best to you :).
Click to expand...

Peter - I am not accusing RED of anything - please read carefully my own posts - not what others have said "that I have said"...
Quite the contrary. I have actually specifically stated that I do believe in RED and I know they are NOT that type of company...

When people say they like black - it does not mean that they hate white - and many people here have made those assumptions and have (hopefully not on purpose) misinterpreted and/or misquoted my posts...

Peter
 
Martin Beek said:
But the thing is, we already own a Scarlet... Bought at full price...
Click to expand...

Gunleik Groven said:
... and delivered with the framerates/rez announced...
Click to expand...

So perhaps You should return Your Epic (or pay $19K extra as the elitists are asking us to do) - since it now has more MODES (combinations of H x V x FPS within the same HW limits) then it was originally announced with - in particular it was never announced to be able to handle 5K at 120P - which it does now with the same WS mode we are asking for in Scarlet...

Gunleik - out of all people I would think that You would understand and support this idea... Would not have picked You as one of the "elitists"...

Peter
 
About the de-bayering of 5K - The Scarlet already does this without a sweat. I can shoot timelapses in 5K FF HDRx and play them back in the camera at 24P or even output to a external monitor... This is clearly not an issue here...

Peter - as You would remember from our discussions - I do know what I am talking about...

There are two considerations: what the sensor is capable of in therms of his linkage to the ASIC (remember that the sensor is the same as in the Epic) - and this is very much (and I have used the word simplified a lot through out my posts) case of H x V x FPS. This is the basis for the higher speeds at lower resolutions. This is how RED works for the RED ONE days. That is how we got the 4.5K WS mode on RED ONE...
The second issue is the REDCODE compression ratio related to the sustained read/write speeds of the REDMAGs. Only so much data can be written to them using the Scarlets HW (and same goes for Epic) - which is why the need for higher compression (smaller data) to be able to write on the media without fail at higher speeds...

So - for the record - I have never said that RED has on purpose DISABLED this mode in Scarlet. That was Elan putting words into my mouth.
I have said that (for now) it is only enabled in Epic. This could be because they only had the chance to test this properly with Epic. Remember that everything is first developed for Epic and then (at later stage) scaled and adopted to Scarlet - as per Jim words. The basic code is the same. The HW is not. At least some parts. I am sure they will eventually come around to testing and verifying this mode(s) for the Scarlet. I hope they do it soon...

The reason why I have posted all those calculations was to support that I am indeed asking for something that should be possible. It was precisely in anticipation of all the Epic elitists accusations that followed in this thread. It was to show that I am not asking for MORE. I am asking for ALTERNATIVE to the SAME...

Peter

EDIT:

And also to emphasize that the main solution/comment I have made in the first post was that if (by any chance) this is not possible at full 5K - we (Scarlet owners) would gladly settle for "4.9Kws, or 4.75Kws, or even 4.5Kws (wide-screen) mode"...
The idea is simple. Every little oversampling over the deliverable 4K will improve the final image...

Why pushing so hard now?

Simple! First - because of the recently established UHD format (REC.2020). Second - because of competition is finally trying to catch up (i.e. Sony F5/F55, Alexa 4K, Canon C500, etc...). Why not give the (RED) customers little extra edge over the competition if the camera can handle it? And lastly - because of Jim's "why 5K is so important in 4K workflows"...
 
Well, anyway, most of us are just talking about the possibility of 4.5k like red offered to red one via a firmware, even if people paid for 4k.
 
+1
we ask only for the possibility to record @ 4.5K (or 5k with medium-high compression) at 24/25/30fps.
Peace. :blush:


Peter Majtan said:
About the de-bayering of 5K - The Scarlet already does this without a sweat. I can shoot timelapses in 5K FF HDRx and play them back in the camera at 24P or even output to a external monitor... This is clearly not an issue here...

Peter - as You would remember from our discussions - I do know what I am talking about...

There are two considerations: what the sensor is capable of in therms of his linkage to the ASIC (remember that the sensor is the same as in the Epic) - and this is very much (and I have used the word simplified a lot through out my posts) case of H x V x FPS. This is the basis for the higher speeds at lower resolutions. This is how RED works for the RED ONE days. That is how we got the 4.5K WS mode on RED ONE...
The second issue is the REDCODE compression ratio related to the sustained read/write speeds of the REDMAGs. Only so much data can be written to them using the Scarlets HW (and same goes for Epic) - which is why the need for higher compression (smaller data) to be able to write on the media without fail...

So - for the record - I have never said the RED has on purpose DISABLED this mode in Scarlet. That was Elan putting words into my mouth.
I have said that (for now) it is only enabled in Epic. This could be because they only had the chance to test this properly with Epic. Remember that everything is first developed for Epic and then (at later stage) scaled and adopted to Scarlet - as per Jim words. The basic code is the same. The HW is not. At least some parts. I am sure they will eventually come around to testing and verifying this mode(s) for the Scarlet. I hope they do it soon...

The reason why I have posted all those calculations was to support that I am indeed asking for something that should be possible. It was precisely in anticipation of all the Epic elitists accusations that followed in this thread. It was to show that I am not asking for MORE. I am asking for ALTERNATIVE to the SAME...

Peter
Click to expand...
 
Sorry for being "elitistic"
Trying to be practical and not expect what is not announced and even not all things announced, given reds history.

There are a ton of (semi-) official epic features I'd love to see.
And there are stuff I'd like to see better implemented.
For sure.

Meanwhile, I use the thing.
And it kinda fullfills my expectations of image quality.

As did the red one m

From allmost day one.

Red has taught me that good things come, if they're meant to be. Sometimes late, sometimes never.

Meanwhile, i really think it is important to focus on the potential in the cams we have and find solutions for fuckups and workflows.

Really

Dissatisfaction triggers me a bit these days. I guess that is all that it is to it.
It feels like such a nonproductive thing.

But that's just me.

I have no problem seeing how people cannot shell out for an Epic...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Sorry for being "elitistic"
Trying to be practical and not expect what is not announced and even not all things announced, given reds history.

There are a ton of (semi-) official epic features I'd love to see.
And there are stuff I'd like to see better implemented.
For sure.

Meanwhile, I use the thing.
And it kinda fullfills my expectations of image quality.

As did the red one m

From allmost day one.

Red has taught me that good things come, if they're meant to be. Sometimes late, sometimes never.

Meanwhile, i really think it is important to focus on the potential in the cams we have and find solutions for fuckups and workflows.

Really

Dissatisfaction triggers me a bit these days. I guess that is all that it is to it.
It feels like such a nonproductive thing.

But that's just me.

I have no problem seeing how people cannot shell out for an Epic...
Click to expand...

I think as a whole thread, it may seem like disappointment, but really we love our Scarlets! They are more than adequate! And like you with your RED M, they are just like we expected and we are using them every day (well, I am). We are not dissatisfied! We are simply discussing the possibility (both technically, and wishfully) of new features that could be added via firware, just like the EPIC and Red ONE - Features that we would be super excited to have.
 
I think we should stop pretending that there is any possibility that Scarlet is not crippled by firmware... Not that there is anything inherently wrong with this, but many of us could tell even a year ago that 5k/12fps was pretty arbitrary: obviously the camera has more than 10% the horsepower of Epic, even if we don't know exactly where it stands. I didn't buy the camera with the expectation that any limitations would be removed, but obviously the recent price drops on other cameras have brought many people to start considering this possibility.

RED obviously has to walk a fine line between competition against other camera systems vs. competition amongst RED models. Scarlet 5k/24fps would definitely hurt SOME Epic rentals/sales - the question is how many. To RED, there would be a massive advantage to upgrading so many cameras already in the field, in terms of better positioning their brand against Sony/Alexa/Canon etc. The downside would be (additional) hurt on Epic owners, unless they could squeeze more specs out of their cameras as well (unlikely since it is not limited by software, as most Epic users tacitly seem to acknowledge). I'm trying really hard to put myself in you guys' shoes and feel the burn of having your equipment value almost halved - y'all should do the same and imagine that camera you use every day being deliberately held back by its firmware...

I would say it's unlikely that v4.0 contains any/many new resolutions or framerates, only because Dragon will not be available yet to properly differentiate Epic. Once sensor upgrades start rolling out to the big rental houses and power users, I think it's highly unlikely that a beefed-up Scarlet will eat into Epic's marketshare by much. As every other brand starts releasing their 4k variants, and the RED line continues to fracture into more distinct models (a good thing for everyone but the firmware team...), I think fewer and fewer clients will bother to understand the specs between Scarlet-X vs Scarlet Dragon vs Epic-X vs Epic-M vs Epic Dragon vs R1 etc etc. They will consider one brand against another, and always regard the 'budget' models (Scarlet/C300/FS700) as inferior to the 'pro' lines. Epic will always be feature-film territory, while Scarlet could claim a greater and greater share of the indie market - mostly stolen from DSLRs and similarly-priced cameras.

My only real criticism of RED in all of this would be not being upfront about it - but if in 6 months or a year, Scarlet is upgraded to new specs via fw update, they could at least portray it as a major development task and blame that for the delay. Acknowledging today that it's a deliberate limitation would only instigate even more ruckus from the Scarlet crowd... so obviously a Catch 22. The biggest disappointment is probably the defensive attitude of Epic owners: Bill Hicks would probably say, "I'd upgrade, if I wasn't so worried I'd turn into one of them!"
 
Gunleik. No disappointment at all - and I am also using the Scarlet to it's best I can as often as I can. You will hopefully see this at the festival if my short passes...

One of the best thing about RED is that the DO LISTEN TO THEIR CUSTOMERS...

This thread is simply that. A customer asking for something. And explaining in the same breath why and how it should be possible. There has been plenty of borderline idiotic requests on this board (by both Epic and Scarlet camps). This is not one of them...

I was simply shocked the way You have replied to Martin. I hope You do realize that Your Epic was only capable of 5K in 96P when announced / released and it was only recently that the WS mode was added that allows the Epic to fly 5K at 120P.
Well Scarlet was announced / released with 5K at 12P. The same mode that has been recently enabled on Epic should allow the Scarlet to fly at 24P.

Why are Scarlet owners something less in the eyes of so many Epic owners? This is the saddest side-effect of the new DSMC lineup...

Peter
 
DL Fitch said:
I think we should stop pretending that there is any possibility that Scarlet is not crippled by firmware... Not that there is anything inherently wrong with this, but many of us could tell even a year ago that 5k/12fps was pretty arbitrary: obviously the camera has more than 10% the horsepower of Epic, even if we don't know exactly where it stands. I didn't buy the camera with the expectation that any limitations would be removed, but obviously the recent price drops on other cameras have brought many people to start considering this possibility.
Click to expand...

Nobody is saying that the Scarlet is crippled on purpose. Let us please drop this BS...


DL Fitch said:
RED obviously has to walk a fine line between competition against other camera systems vs. competition amongst RED models. Scarlet 5k/24fps (You have forgotten to add the "WS" here) would definitely hurt SOME Epic rentals/sales - the question is how many.
Click to expand...

First - RED does not have to do that. In fact - as we know RED - RED stands directly against this!
And what competition amongst RED models are You talking about? Epic is 5x faster then Scarlet which ever way you look at it.
Epic can shoot it's full 5K sensor at 24P, up to 96P, or 48P with HDRx - Scarlet can not do ANY of that...
If that is not enough differentiation then I do not know what is...
In the film world Epic is like ARRI435 including the high-speed option and Scarlet is like ARRI235 able to shoot 2-perf only (WS) and even that only at up to 24P.
Eating into the Epic sales? Don't think so... Quite the contrary - it will allow many Scarlet users to easily save up for that Epic brain...


DL Fitch said:
To RED, there would be a massive advantage to upgrading so many cameras already in the field, in terms of better positioning their brand against Sony/Alexa/Canon etc. The downside would be (additional) hurt on Epic owners, unless they could squeeze more specs out of their cameras as well (unlikely since it is not limited by software, as most Epic users tacitly seem to acknowledge).
Click to expand...

I am gobsmacked that I need to repeat this again - we are not asking to "squeeze more". Epic got the 5K WS mode recently which boosted it from 96P to 120P in the WS mode - while dropping vertical resolution. We are asking for the same mode on Scarlet. It should boost the ALREADY available 5K FF at 12P to 24P in the WS mode... This is not more - it is the same - just different...


DL Fitch said:
I would say it's unlikely that v4.0 contains any/many new resolutions or framerates, only because Dragon will not be available yet to properly differentiate Epic.
Click to expand...

As I have mentioned above - the Epic is plenty differentiated from Scarlet as it is. Much more than its 2.something higher price tag would suggest...


DL Fitch said:
The biggest disappointment is probably the defensive attitude of Epic owners: Bill Hicks would probably say, "I'd upgrade, if I wasn't so worried I'd turn into one of them!"
Click to expand...

That we do agree on...

Peter
 
Peter Majtan said:
Nobody is saying that the Scarlet is crippled on purpose. Let us please drop this BS...
Click to expand...

I would consider the lack of WS ratios, 2:1, and anamorphic modes 'crippled' when compared to Epic... and clearly deliberate. If your logic that 5k WS is possible at 24 based on pixels/second, than so is full 5k at 19.2 fps. Not much more useful than 12, but a software limitation nonetheless.


Peter Majtan said:
Epic can shoot it's full 5K sensor at 24P, up to 96P, or 48P with HDRx - Scarlet can not do ANY of that...
If that is not enough differentiation then I do not know what is...
In the film world Epic is like ARRI435 including the high-speed option and Scarlet is like ARRI235 able to shoot 2-perf only (WS) and even that only at up to 24P.
Eating into the Epic sales? Don't think so... Quite the contrary - it will allow many Scarlet users to easily save up for that Epic brain...
Click to expand...

Personally, I agree 100%. I never imagined how badly I'd want an Epic until I started shooting on Scarlet... but most producers don't think this way. They're not gonna do the math on 5k WS and realize what a bummer it really is; they'll say "The DP wanted 5k so that's what we got him."


Peter Majtan said:
I am gobsmacked that I need to repeat this again - we are not asking to "squeeze more". Epic got the 5K WS mode recently which boosted it from 96P to 120P in the WS mode - while dropping vertical resolution. We are asking for the same mode on Scarlet. It should boost the ALREADY available 5K FF at 12P to 24P in the WS mode... This is not more - it is the same - just different...
Click to expand...

I was making that point more in general than to 5k WS specifically - some people think they should simply unlock every possible feature the Scarlet hardware will support... 24fps at 5k FF or 4k HDRx, for example. IF (big if) those are possible, they would clearly hurt Epic's position if unlocked. At the same time, it would help RED and the quality of footage their users produce. So there's an inherent trade-off with any Scarlet upgrade.

As for 5k WS, I agree that should be possible even if Scarlet is otherwise maxed out... but Gunliek is right that most Epic shooting is done 'at speed' just like Scarlet - so ability at 24fps is the main distinguishing factor. As awesome as 5k WS at 240fps would be, most Epic users would never use it. Even on Scarlet, that vertical resolution would be a big limitation - but to people unfamiliar with the cameras, it makes Scarlet '5k' - so why pay extra for an Epic if you aren't doing slo-mo? Again, THIS IS NOT THE WAY I THINK. Epic owners are not worried about losing their own perceived value in the camera; they are worried about clients' perception (and the slick talk they're hearing from us Scarlet owners trying to steal away that rental...)

Personally, I think 4.5k is the best compromise - and is a shooting mode I would use almost exclusively. Of course, as a Scarlet owner, I'm also fully in favor of anything they can possibly squeeze out at 5k - just trying to play devil's advocate so we can have reasonable expectations.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
If you need more capacity from your Scarlet shoots, the M-X is only $4,000 now in the store and delivers most of what you request TODAY :)
Click to expand...

I've been wondering that myself as I wait for my BT Scarlet to deliver.

I cant help think that I can make do with the BT RED MX.

But then that lingering possibility of the Scarlet upgrade.
 
Erik, the Red One has 4.5k but it's wide screen with 8:1 redcode @ 24fps. The 4kHD is the same for the Scarlet but with 6:1 compression and MUCH lighter:

RED ONE SPECS:
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TH]Frame size[/TH]
[TH]Width[/TH]
[TH]Height[/TH]
[TH]Mpix[/TH]
[TH]Aspect Ratio[/TH]
[TH]max. fps[/TH]
[TH]lowest possible REDCODE at 24 fps[/TH]
[TH]lowest possible REDCODE at max. fps[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.5K[/TD]
[TD]4480[/TD]
[TD]1920[/TD]
[TD]8.6[/TD]
[TD]2.33:1[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4K[/TD]
[TD]4096[/TD]
[TD]2304[/TD]
[TD]9.4[/TD]
[TD]1.78:1[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4K[/TD]
[TD]4096[/TD]
[TD]2048[/TD]
[TD]8.4[/TD]
[TD]2:1[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4K HD[/TD]
[TD]3840[/TD]
[TD]2160[/TD]
[TD]8.3[/TD]
[TD]1.78:1[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4K ANA[/TD]
[TD]2816[/TD]
[TD]2304[/TD]
[TD]6.5[/TD]
[TD]2.44:1[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3K[/TD]
[TD]3072[/TD]
[TD]1728[/TD]
[TD]5.3[/TD]
[TD]1.78:1[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3K[/TD]
[TD]3072[/TD]
[TD]1536[/TD]
[TD]4.7[/TD]
[TD]2:1[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3K ANA[/TD]
[TD]2112[/TD]
[TD]1728[/TD]
[TD]3.8[/TD]
[TD]2.44:1[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2K[/TD]
[TD]2048[/TD]
[TD]1152[/TD]
[TD]2.4[/TD]
[TD]1.78:1[/TD]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2K[/TD]
[TD]2048[/TD]
[TD]1024[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD]2:1[/TD]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2K ANA[/TD]
[TD]1408[/TD]
[TD]1152[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[TD]2.44:1[/TD]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[TD]8:1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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What we need here is the Red version of XDA developers.

Suggestion: If you are a programmer, do it yourself with your own camera, write your own firmware and prove everyone wrong, that's not against the law, is your camera, is for your personal use, you can do whatever you want with it, you paid for it, (you'll loose your Red warranty thou), but I am sure there is more than one computer genius in this forum, and, If Red people see that it works, probably they will adopt it, so my suggestion is: Try. (please make sure you don't brick your camera, is expensive).




http://twitter.com/pm709
 
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