No excuse for 5K@24P on Scarlet

[Les Dittert]

If scarlet hardware is capable at shooting 5K WS at 24fps, I'm sure RED will allow this some day when it fit's in to there business model. When Sony releases a 5K camera for a ton of cash then a cool scarlet firmware will appear

That is the truth! That's why I'm not in a hurry to sell my Scarlets, they are my little Epic embryos right now.

 

[paul schefz]

If scarlet hardware is capable at shooting 5K WS at 24fps, I'm sure RED will allow this some day when it fit's in to there business model. When Sony releases a 5K camera for a ton of cash then a cool scarlet firmware will appear

that seems to be the nagging feeling in the scarlet camp....

 

[Pablo Moreno]

As someone who has driven both Ferrari street cars and race cars, I have to ask... What's your point?

I just don't get people who buy camera X knowing damn well what they are getting, and then whining about it not having the features of camera Y. Or buying camera X for a yet to be determined future upgrade, rather than a camera that meets your shooting needs now. If the tools you use now do not fulfill your clients expectations, then get tools that do!

Seriously, there are people on this board that can shoot masterpieces with a Playskool camera.

My point?. One example:

I have a cellphone that it has an Android custom firmware (Cyanogenmod). Its a crappy smartphone compared to the latest in the same line, still custom firmware let me overclock the hardware and push it to the limits and add features not possible with the stock firmware. Why should be different with the Scarlet camera?.

For what I read in this thread, one guy states that, with a simple modification in the firmware (lines of code), without any modification in the hardware, you can cut vertical resolution in order to gain frame rate.

So I don't understand what is all the fuss about. Isn't an Epic still an Epic because of that?, and yes, I agree with you, many people will be surprised to know that many features movies has been shot with 16mm film cameras, even 1080p digital cameras, but, if what you are saying about the playskool camera is true, then you are contradicting yourself with that statement about Ferrari cars.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Nobody is whining - aside of the obvious Epic owners. They know that the only difference between our talent and theirs is that they had the budget to buy Epic and we (Scarlet owners) did not - for now...
I have bought the Scarlet knowing fully what it can do and I have been using it successfully ever since I got it...

I did not buy camera X and want it to do what camera Y does.
I bought camera X and want it to do what camera X does:
4096 (H) x 2160 (V) x 30 (FPS) = 265.420.800 - current max on Scarlet
Current max on Scarlet: 265.420.800 / 5120 (H) / 2160 (V) = 24 (FPS)

The problem of people whining here is the opposite:
The owners of camera Y are afraid that the specs of the camera X will "appear" similar to camera Y and they might have a hard time justifying their clients why to use them - because clearly talent is not what they are selling...

Peter

 

[Timur Civan]

Ever occur to anyone that perhaps the hardware may not be able to process anything bigger than the 4k window? None of us are engineers . There is alot of voodoo going on. Making demands is ridiculous.

 

[David W. Jones]

Nobody is whining - aside of the obvious Epic owners. They know that the only difference between our talent and theirs is that they had the budget to buy Epic and we (Scarlet owners) did not - for now...
Peter

Sorry but talent has nothing to do with which camera you own. As a matter of fact some of the most talented shooters out there don't even own a camera.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

After the Dragon upgrade it makes sense... in fact its a nice alternative to Scarlet owners who wont have a Dragon Upgrade path...

But until then, I think its important from a brand perspective to keep the EPIC --- well EPIC and that means 5K motion is unique to this system

If you need more capacity from your Scarlet shoots, the M-X is only $4,000 now in the store and delivers most of what you request TODAY

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Ever occur to anyone that perhaps the hardware may not be able to process anything bigger than the 4k window? None of us are engineers . There is alot of voodoo going on. Making demands is ridiculous.

Timur read the entire thread again, the camera is already capable of 5K, at 12fps. What Peter is asking is to modify the firmware in order to cut some vertical resolution and gain more frame rate. (24-30 fps). We don't have to be engineers to know that.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Sorry but talent has nothing to do with which camera you own. As a matter of fact some of the most talented shooters out there don't even own a camera.

Ironically that is exactly my point - if you re-read my post properly...
Try explaining that to the Epic owners who are frightened that Scarlet might shoot at 1/5 their speed (which it has been from the get go)...

:reddevil:

 

[Pablo Moreno]

By the way, nobody has talk about the fact that Scarlet does 16bit raw processing. But even high end cameras like Sony-Canon work at 10-12 bit, that could speed the Cpu processing on the Scarlet too.. probably too much to ask..

 

[Peter Majtan]

After the Dragon upgrade it makes sense... in fact its a nice alternative to Scarlet owners who wont have a Dragon Upgrade path...

But until then, I think its important from a brand perspective to keep the EPIC --- well EPIC and that means 5K motion is unique to this system

If you need more capacity from your Scarlet shoots, the M-X is only $4,000 now in the store and delivers most of what you request TODAY

Tim - this would be expected if we were talking about SONY, or Canon, etc...
But we are talking RED here...

Obsolescence obsolete...
Not limiting what the HW can do just because of "marketing strategy"...
Listening to their customers...

And for the zillionth time - I am not asking for the Scarlet to do "more"... I am asking for it to do what it does rather well already - just reallocating the equation a little...
And if Epic owners feels threatened by 5K WIDE SCREEN at 24P max and without HDRx - then well... I am not going to be the one hurling insults here (and I am not talking about You Tim either...)

Peter

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Scarlet: 265.420.800 / 5120 (H) / 2160 (V) = 24 (FPS)

Is like shooting with a 3-perf motion film..
I can live with that!

 

[Adam Johnson]

One of the many reasons I purchased one!

After the Dragon upgrade it makes sense... in fact its a nice alternative to Scarlet owners who wont have a Dragon Upgrade path...

But until then, I think its important from a brand perspective to keep the EPIC --- well EPIC and that means 5K motion is unique to this system

If you need more capacity from your Scarlet shoots, the M-X is only $4,000 now in the store and delivers most of what you request TODAY

 

[Peter Moretti]

By the way, nobody has talk about the fact that Scarlet does 16bit raw processing. But even high end cameras like Sony-Canon work at 10-12 bit, that could speed the Cpu processing on the Scarlet too.. probably too much to ask..

The Sony F65 is 16-bits throughout.

 

[jimhare]

Timur read the entire thread again, the camera is already capable of 5K, at 12fps. What Peter is asking is to modify the firmware in order to cut some vertical resolution and gain more frame rate. (24-30 fps). We don't have to be engineers to know that.

Actually you kind of do... These questions have come up in the past and the "engineers" have come back with reasons you can't just dial up a new ratio and expect it to work. Some just don't fit through the smaller pipe despite dividing them differently. 2+2 isn't always 4.

Anyway, since so many on this thread have claimed that it's possible now but Red are withholding it, chances are it will have little impact on them.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Actually you kind of do... These questions have come up in the past and the "engineers" have come back with reasons you can't just dial up a new ratio and expect it to work. Some just don't fit through the smaller pipe despite dividing them differently. 2+2 isn't always 4.

Anyway, since so many on this thread have claimed that it's possible now but Red are withholding it, chances are it will have little impact on them.

If I have to be an engineer in order to know that 5120 x 2700 12fps occupy the same bandwidth that 5120 x 2160 24fps, then I have to go back to college.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Actually you kind of do... These questions have come up in the past and the "engineers" have come back with reasons you can't just dial up a new ratio and expect it to work. Some just don't fit through the smaller pipe despite dividing them differently. 2+2 isn't always 4.

Anyway, since so many on this thread have claimed that it's possible now but Red are withholding it, chances are it will have little impact on them.

There is no "smaller pipe". It is the same exact pipe. And 2+2 is always 4. Unless You are trying to pull some "marketing stunt"... Same way 8x4x12 = 8x2x24... Kids in fifth grade would understand that...
You need an engineer / programmer thou to write the new lines into the Scarlet firmware - however - as I have found out - the 5K WS format is already in the DSMC firmware - but only (for now) enabled in Epic. So no need to write new code either...
The two 4.5K formats would need a little work from the programmer. And not to take it for granted - but charges for SW improvements are not RED's domain...

I have complete trust that (at the very least) the 5K WS mode will be enabled in the "big one" (firmware 4) coming in December. Hopefully the two 4.5K modes will make it as well - they are not that relevant to Epic owners, but they would make a life of a difference to Scarlet users...

What makes me sad thou is some Epic owners. We have all started believing in REDVOLUTION. Others called it scam. We believed. We have shrugged at other companies who would deliberately limit their HW to segregate their product offerings and keep charging for even minor updates as if it was a new camera. Jim with his team threw all that in the garbage. He gave us RED. But now, suddenly, we have some Epic owners who would have quickly forgotten all this and what RED stands for. They have become themselves what they used to hate not that long ago. Some called it "elitist", other names have been thrown around - in many cases by the same people only what seems like yesterday...

What makes me happy thou is knowing that there are still many who stay the course. Many who understand that ultimately more Scarlets out there is a good thing for RED and Epic owners in return. Some have clearly said so in this thread and I salute them for this...

Peter

 

[Elan Gunos]

You're basing this on wild conjecture which may or may not be possible. Given official statements from Red, it's hard to really know if they're deliberately disabling this option, or what is happening under the hood is not as simplistic as you make it appear. Sure you can do the math and theorize on pipes and such, but from the earlier discussion from Graeme, et al. there appears to be a much more involved process and relationship between balancing sensor, microprocessor, ram(?), heat, etc. and a whole bunch of other factors, we users, are most likely not aware of. And it's also probably great to do a victory dance if they eventually add the option of 5K WS later on, all the while thinking your theory was spot on, and they're a bunch of money-grubbing assholes — all the while, the solution, if any, was most likely something more involving than fifth grade math.

If I was Red and I did find a way of doing 5K WS, I probably WOULDN'T do it now based on this, since they'll be seen as the guys who deliberately disabled this feature.

There is no "smaller pipe". It is the same exact pipe. And 2+2 is always 4. Unless You are trying to pull some "marketing stunt"... Same way 8x4x12 = 8x2x24... Kids in fifth grade would understand that...
You need an engineer / programmer thou to write the new lines into the Scarlet firmware - however - as I have found out - the 5K WS format is already in the DSMC firmware - but only (for now) enabled in Epic. So no need to write new code either...
The two 4.5K formats would need a little work from the programmer. And not to take it for granted - but charges for SW improvements are not RED's domain...

I have complete trust that (at the very least) the 5K WS mode will be enabled in the "big one" (firmware 4) coming in December. Hopefully the two 4.5K modes will make it as well - they are not that relevant to Epic owners, but they would make a life of a difference to Scarlet users...

What makes me sad thou is some Epic owners. We have all started believing in REDVOLUTION. Others called it scam. We believed. We have shrugged at other companies who would deliberately limit their HW to segregate their product offerings and keep charging for even minor updates as if it was a new camera. Jim with his team threw all that in the garbage. He gave us RED. But now, suddenly, we have some Epic owners who would have quickly forgotten all this and what RED stands for. They have become themselves what they used to hate not that long ago. Some called it "elitist", other names have been thrown around - in many cases by the same people only what seems like yesterday...

What makes me happy thou is knowing that there are still many who stay the course. Many who understand that ultimately more Scarlets out there is a good thing for RED and Epic owners in return. Some have clearly said so in this thread and I salute them for this...

Peter

 

[JanneJansson]

After the Dragon upgrade it makes sense... in fact its a nice alternative to Scarlet owners who wont have a Dragon Upgrade path...

But until then, I think its important from a brand perspective to keep the EPIC --- well EPIC and that means 5K motion is unique to this system

If you need more capacity from your Scarlet shoots, the M-X is only $4,000 now in the store and delivers most of what you request TODAY

The only thing that is predictable with RED is they are unpredictable. Dont count on anything.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Peter,

What is going on? You have always seemed like the most level headed and reasonable of persons. I remember back to our PM's about Kurosawa .

But now you are accusing Red of deliberately crippling Scarlet. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know the answer. But you are saying that you do. And that's pretty out there.

And as was mentioned above, just b/c the "pipes" are the same size does not necessarily mean that 5K feasible. Remember that the 5K needs to be debayerd (for the display and output). Debayering is processor intensive. So perhaps Scarlet can reliably debayer 4K but not 5K. I honestly have no idea if that's the case, but neither do you.

I think it's also just bad form to demand more when the Scarlet has already been a hands down winner for its price by a such wide margin.

So I'm left really confused. Don't feel the need to explain, as I've read your posts. Anyway, still all the best to you .