Next 6 months?

[Jarred Land]

'm sure I've read that, beyond the basic core software, Scarlet 8x development/production is pretty much entirely decoupled from EPIC? Different manufacturing facilities and minimal co-dependencies? True or false? In other words, there's no reason you couldn't be making 1,000 Scarlets a week right now (modulo the lens & component supply issues of course!) if it wasn't for the fact that you're concentrating resources and going balls out to get EPIC-X in production?

Thanks

Mike

You are grouping too many things together. Development and Production are two separate things. On the part supply side, since the cameras share RED ASICs, and a lot of other proprietary IP and hardware that we have created, of course there is co-dependencies to some degree.

The camera firmware is a unified base, so features get added to both cameras at the same time.

The DSMC is a system... Scarlet, Epic, etc.


They are each very unique... but also very similar at the same time.

 

[David Rasberry]

Any hints on where the Scarlet interchangeable model will fall in this process?

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

As far as I heard on NAB - Scarlet will not be upgradable to Dragon.

 

[David Battistella]

As far as I heard on NAB - Scarlet will not be upgradable to Dragon.

But why not MX?

The body probably isn't final. Maybe a bit more room in there for a larger sensor, like the M-X.

I don't know what's involved, just putting it out there.

5K EPIC and beyond
4K everything else.

Makes sense to me.

David

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

You are grouping too many things together. Development and Production are two separate things. On the part supply side, since the cameras share RED ASICs, and a lot of other proprietary IP and hardware that we have created, of course there is co-dependencies to some degree.

The camera firmware is a unified base.... so you install the same firmware upgrade on your Scarlet as you do on your EPIC.. the same file.

The DSMC is a system... Scarlet, Epic, etc.


They are each very unique... but also very similar at the same time.

Thanks for the clarification Jarred. I knew there was a lot of common code but didn't realize the software was quite so close... I was thinking, for instance, in terms of software functionality not getting into Scarlet until it's finished in EPIC, that's where I was referring to 'development/production', wondering if you were thinking 'we won't put Scarlet into production until ALL the functionality is enabled in software'.

Mike

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

But why not MX?

The body probably isn't final. Maybe a bit more room in there for a larger sensor, like the M-X.

I don't knwo what's involved, just putting it out there.

5K EPIC and beyond
4K everything else.

Makes sense to me.

David

As far as I've heard the Scarlet body design IS final and has been for some time. All it wants is finished software, lens components that are in short supply, and a production line.

Someone from RED will be along to correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK the sensor branding / code name - M, MX, Dragon - describes the technology behind the sensor, not the physical size. So Scarlet (I *think*) could be described as having an MX-generation sensor. EPIC-X will eventually go Dragon, the next generation. But a future FF35 or 645 camera could equally have a Dragon sensor.

RED guys, does this approximate to correctness? Mysterium is synonymous with 'RED sensor tech version 1', MX version 2, Dragon version 3 etc.?

Mike

 

[David Battistella]

As far as I've heard the Scarlet body design IS final and has been for some time.

That was true for EPIC and then they added 13mm to the body. I don't think that kind of thing is LOCKED until you have to go to production.

From what I have observed here, there has been A LOT of talk about 4K 4K 2:1 how 1080 is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

When I hear about 3K it feels wierd and it feels like it does not fit in with the overall message.

I am not dissing Scarlet by any means, I just think that after three years, it might as well also be a 4K camera.

Three years ago a 3K camera to compete with DSLR 1080P made a TON OF SENSE. Later this year or next year, not so much.

You have to bump it up to 4K and scale it down to 1080. IF the price is the same as a DSLR then it makes perfect sense because it's RAW, but the stills on a DSLR are 5K and the video is 1080.

I don't know. All to much for me to contemplate.

 

[Steve Wake]

The camera firmware is a unified base.... so you install the same firmware upgrade on your Scarlet as you do on your EPIC.. the same file.

The DSMC is a system... Scarlet, Epic, etc.


They are each very unique... but also very similar at the same time.

WOW! I usually leave the fanboy comments to others, but this was a surprise - and I don't remember it being stated so clearly before. So Epic (Jackson, Soderbergh, et al's camera) and Scarlet (my future camera) share firmware, which means they are more similar at the sensor/ASIC/controls level than they are different? And whatever is upgraded for Epic's firmware will also be available at the same time for Scarlet (to the extent it applies to the hardware capabilities). I mean, there have to be some obvious differences since one is 3K and the other is 5K, but the similarities so overwhelm the differences that it's not worth making two different versions of the firmware?

More proof that they are BOTH professional tools.

 

[David Rasberry]

Based on Scarlet's stated 3.3 micron pixel size, it would be possible to at least bump up to a true S16mm sized QHD 3840 x 2160 format on the same sensor fab. Some S16 lenses might even cover the extra bump to 4k for 2:1 and 2.4:1 formats. But you would also have to bump processing power and cost significantly to maintain the same performance features as the 3k 2/3" version. Maybe this should be the target for the interchangeable lens model. Keeping the fixed at as low an entry cost as possible makes the most sense at this point I think.
For 2/3" format I don't think the difference in resolution would make a practical difference as even at 3k the camera is going to be limited by optical performance of lenses more than by sensor resolution. Would the potential loss of sensitivity and DR really be worth it?

 

[Marko Hocevar]

That was true for EPIC and then they added 13mm to the body. I don't think that kind of thing is LOCKED until you have to go to production.

From what I have observed here, there has been A LOT of talk about 4K 4K 2:1 how 1080 is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

When I hear about 3K it feels wierd and it feels like it does not fit in with the overall message.

I am not dissing Scarlet by any means, I just think that after three years, it might as well also be a 4K camera.

Three years ago a 3K camera to compete with DSLR 1080P made a TON OF SENSE. Later this year or next year, not so much.

You have to bump it up to 4K and scale it down to 1080. IF the price is the same as a DSLR then it makes perfect sense because it's RAW, but the stills on a DSLR are 5K and the video is 1080.

I don't know. All to much for me to contemplate.

Well, it sounds like You would like to transform the Scarlet to EPIC-S but keep the 2/3" sized sensor. For Scarlet to be able to handle 4K it would need more ASIC boards, so when you buff up the scarlet for 4K with HDR etc. the only noticable differrence left (it will not be the price), compared to EPIC-S, would be the sensor size. Also, as You know, EPIC-S will not be able to handle higher frame rates (at least not in 5K). All the option are (will be) here, You just need to pick the desired one. OTOH I agree with You that it is a bit strange to see all the glorifications of 4K and still offering a 3K camera. But OTOH, after 2,5-3 years of hopes&dreams&following the development, I would seriously fall in deep DEPRESSION for a MONTH if RED would announce the Scarlet is discountinued or that Scarlet is upgraded to 4K with 2/3" but now the price is i.e. 12,000$ as that would bring it out of my reach.

 

[David Battistella]

Well, it sounds like You would like to transform the Scarlet to EPIC-S but keep the 2/3" sized sensor.

Nope. I am suggesting it might be possible to put an MX sensor in the Scarlett fixed and make it a 4K camera with limited options. no HDR, no framerates past 60fps, no recording above 12:1 compression, etc

OTOH I agree with You that it is a bit strange to see all the glorifications of 4K and still offering a 3K camera.

I think you are the first person to ever publicly agree with me. LOL

But OTOH, after 2,5-3 years of hopes&dreams&following the development, I would seriously fall in deep DEPRESSION for a MONTH if RED would announce the Scarlet is discountinued or that Scarlet is upgraded to 4K

No one is suggesting that the Scarlett would be discontinued. I am suggesting that you would probably get a lot more because of the development over three years. NOT THE OPPOSITE.

If you are going to follow RED,

-get used to things changing.
-get used to things changing for the BETTER.
-don't get depressed, it's the most exciting camera tech on earth right now.

David

 

[Brice Ansel]

I would seriously fall in deep DEPRESSION for a MONTH if RED would announce the Scarlet is discountinued or that Scarlet is upgraded to 4K with 2/3" but now the price is i.e. 12,000$ as that would bring it out of my reach.

A 4k sensor into the Scarlet body would discontinu more the Red one into my eyes.

 

[David Rasberry]

4k on a 2/3" sensor doesn't make much sense as you would not realize any real increase in visible resolution and you would lose sensitivity and DR in the process. A 2k/1080p finish for most work outside of theatrical features is going to be where the market is for the next decade anyway. Most industrial work is still finishing to DVD, not even Blu-Ray. Same is true for most wedding videos and for a lot of B2B marketing. It certainly is more than adequate for web video. An under $10k 2/3" camera that can match the resolution and IQ of Alexa in a 16mm sized format is nothing to sneeze at.
I would rather have better sensitivity and DR with HDRx and 120fps at 3k than an under performing camera at 4k. Scarlet fixed is a well engineered near optimum package where it stands.

If you mean moving to a 4/3 format or S35 format 4k camera with a fixed lens, the optics become a real problem as the size and cost more than doubles for equal range and speed and not many would be interested in a higher than $10k fixed lens camera.
IMO Epic-S is the replacement for Red 1. Better performance at lower cost with more limited frame rates.

 

[David Battistella]

A 4k sensor into the Scarlet body would discontinu more the Red one into my eyes.

Not really. But if that is the case, so be it. New technology, move on. RED One has it's place in hidtory. It doesn't need to last ten years. There is better technology now and into the future (monstro).

I say 4K is the standard now.

But I could see 3k for 3d rigs or something.

David

 

[David Battistella]

Same is true for most wedding videos and for a lot of B2B marketing.

Believe me. many of those operations have the cash and need for EPCI more than ever. Don't disregard the size of this industry or the importance for high resolution imagery. Tonaci Tran has already shot wedding videos with his EPIC. I think it was one of the first things he posted.

It certainly is more than adequate for web video.

If you think that 1080 is where Youtub is going to stop forever.

An under $10k 2/3" camera that can match the resolution and IQ of Alexa in a 16mm sized format is nothing to sneeze at.

You think RED needs to build a camera that has to compete with Alexa at that level...???? Again, thinking only about today. . .

I would rather have better sensitivity and DR with HDRx and 120fps at 3k than an under performing camera at 4k.

Disagree completely. I'd take the resolution. There is no saying that they couldn't offer higher speed at lower frame size 3K and 2K.

If you read the post earlier. I am saying an MX sensor in a fixed Scarlet (bypassing 2/3 inch altogether).

I have to stress, I do not follow Scarlet development at all. All I know is it's a smaller chip and 3K.

David

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Costs should be compared to still lens enhanced, as they have quantity incentive to lower margins and a 4/3rds lens canbe sold into the general market in colaboration with an existing company yo get quantity, just a thought.

The perfornance loss maybe justifiable, particularly if s16 is used, and the next sensor technology iteration could do it better than the current at 3k. Exciting times we live in. However, you can still use your 2/3rds lens on a s16 or 4/3rds through an adapter and still get at least 2k in the regular imaging circle.

If people really want high performance 2k 2/3rds it has been available for years through altasens sensor cameras, but we are not buying that.

Now guys, from an engineering viewpoint. after such a significant delay, it imight be possible the processing engine has upgraded to be able to handle 4k in the same thermal and power envelope, akai the sensor technology to handle the same performance.

The scarlet probably had been planned 2006 or earlier, not just 3 years.

 

[Marko Hocevar]

If you read the post earlier. I am saying an MX sensor in a fixed Scarlet (bypassing 2/3 inch altogether).

I have to stress, I do not follow Scarlet development at all. All I know is it's a smaller chip and 3K.

David

There are some small things in the way of this idea:
Completely new Scarlet lens design would be needed to cover the surface of EPIC sized senzor. In addition to optical MTF performance, the current fixed lens has electronic focus, exposure, zoom - all this is not even available for the EPIC ( with RED lenses that is, it will be with Canon's). Effectivly by the new branding strategy Scarlet would become sometnig like EPIC-B (Basic) even more limited than EPIS-S - I don't feel RED would ever decide for so much compromises in the EPIC line.
And if the pricing would go above 8,000$, personnaly I wouldn't feel any joy in Scarlet being improved since I wouldn't be able to own it. I already have an EPIC to admire to without ever owning it - I don't need Scarlet for that too

 

[David Battistella]

OK.

Thanks for the info. I don't want to get into the Scarlet stuff.

I'm just interested in 5K and the EPIC.

Thanks for the info.

David

 

[Steven Caesare]

Someone from RED will be along to correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK the sensor branding / code name - M, MX, Dragon - describes the technology behind the sensor, not the physical size. So Scarlet (I *think*) could be described as having an MX-generation sensor. EPIC-X will eventually go Dragon, the next generation. But a future FF35 or 645 camera could equally have a Dragon sensor.

RED guys, does this approximate to correctness? Mysterium is synonymous with 'RED sensor tech version 1', MX version 2, Dragon version 3 etc.?

Mike

That's my understanding as well, Mike. in the semiconductor industry, this is referred to as a "process", i.e.- the unique combination of chip design chemistry, fabrication steps, etc... In other words the design of each photosite is identical in termes of parts, they may simply differ in size and number. Thus, you may have multiple chips with different feature sets, yet be part of the same process family and therefore similar capabilites. Each new process brings a jump in base capability (i.e. 2 stops more sensitivitiy, etc...)

So it would appear that the initial Mysterium chip was the single sensor from the Mysterium fabrication process. The 5K chips in Epic and RedOne(masked to 4.5K) and the 3K chip in Scarlet are all part of the Mysterium-X process, they just aren't individually named.

Things seem to have changed a little going forward.

From Jim's initial roadmap, after M-X, the next process family was to be "Monstro". This is evidenced by the Red Dragon announcement:

RED Dragon. It is of the Monstro family and is scheduled to be released in 2012. The significance of this sensor is that it is an upgrade to the current EPIC-X and EPIC-M and not a new brain.

So the next Sensor to be release has an individual name ("Red Dragon"), but will be part of the Monstro process family. The full-frame chip that might be released for a FF Epic might also be of the Monstro family, as could be the 9K Epic sensor, each with individual names... but thats just speculation based on early roadmap comments and devlopment timelines. Incidentally, I think Mars and Venus (the Red planets) would make great FF and 9K sensor names...

I also got the feeling that "Red Dragon" might refer to the Epic sensor upgrade package/program as well.. so it may be a bit of an umbrella name referring to both sensor and program.

Of course... this is all subject to change.

-sc

PS- I mourn the fact that We likely aren't going to hear about sensor design far in advance any more as we once used to.. we know that Jim has seen Monstro test samples, whch means that the next iteration or two is likely well underway...

 

[Nathaniel Haban]

I am suggesting it might be possible to put an MX sensor in the Scarlett fixed and make it a 4K camera with limited options. no HDR, no framerates past 60fps, no recording above 12:1 compression, etc

IMO, that's a heck of a lot to give up just to be able to shoot in 4K.

I would implore RED NOT to do this. The bang for your buck will be in increased DR, higher ISOs, and being able to shoot with as little compression as possible.