NEW FF+ Cine Lenses... For DRAGON... In the works...

[Patrick Tresch]

+1 only metrical scale. ;-)

Pat

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Perhaps you should design simpler,lighter and better one Jacek....and then you will be a very rich man. Put me down for set ;-)

No need for that- there are hundreds of fantastic lenses full frame and whatnot for peanuts. All that needs to be done is utilizing the amazing technology they employ. Somebody should do that...oh wait- we've done it already!!!!:001_tongue:

 

[Adam Johnson]

I beat you to the punch heheh look back 7 hours in this thread ;-)

Amazing glass it will be indeed!!

Interestingly enough there was a new article published on the new Zeiss 55mm f/1.4 lens a day after this thread started:

http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/?p=4190

About 3 years from concept to completion and about 1 year of physical development work. I have held this lens and looked through it. I also spent a good amount of time talking to a few folks at Zeiss on the design. These particular lenses are said to be the best Zeiss lenses ever made. They are currently working on fleshing out the series and these aren't just still lenses, although the first one out of the gate will hit market as a still lens.

In my opinion these are going to be difficult to beat. Both in price and in performance.

I have no reason to believe this at the moment, but I would be shocked if Zeiss doesn't show 2 to 3 more lenses based around this new design at NAB 2014.

The still version, while I believe still on track to be released this year, was supposed to be around $4,000 USD.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

In my opinion these are going to be difficult to beat. Both in price and in performance.

The still version, while I believe still on track to be released this year, was supposed to be around $4,000 USD.

That's a hefty price tag for a 1.4/55 still lens ... Wouldn't that be a sign that the price for a cine version would increase exponentially ?

EDIT: not saying its not worth it!!!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I'd say with the EPIC the big advantage is shooting LARGE images in a small package, not the case with the F65. So I would take a hit for smaller lighter weight lenses to match the form factor of the EPIC. IN a big studio setup, maybe, but with the Dragon making the smaller camera more light sensitive with cleaner images, I'd say keeping every part of the process smaller and less obtrusive is better to my taste.


David

David, while partially agreeing with you, has been my strong experience, that too small and light of glass does not work well, does not balance well, and does not allow for proper use on set or on the field, and lenses such as the 11-16 have proved too small so I will be sure not to make them too small, yet I will not look to make them as big and heavy as Master Primes, but most likely a little bigger then Ultra primes.

Also there is the Manufacturing part to consider, were the smaller the lens, the harder is to bring proper amount and spacing for Focus Markings were needed, so I will have a Barrel circumference wide enough to accolade for it.

Hi Ketch, I wanted to give you some food for thought:

I think sticking to imperial only is very limiting. Check out the Schneider Xenar III which have a calibrated, user replaceable scale. The best idea ever! A scale costs $350 if I recall correctly. Which is great for resale value or rentals as well.

Although I'm wondering if there could be a way to have both at the same time as on still lenses...

Don't limit your idea. If you want to sell more, you need both!

There's a reduser poll as well where metric vs imperial was discussed. Metric won.

Patrick,

I actually have tough of making a DUAL Focus Scale Markings Ring, just like on the Master Primes, were the user can unscrew few tiny screws and flip the ring from Imperial to Metrics, that however to be a good and properly done, will not cost so little, but much more, I don't care what others are doing, I know what it takes to do it right, and if it can be done will be done, but the set must be Imperial at birth, any other extras that can be made available will be done so, the Dual Focus Marking scale ring being a priority amongst them, or a secondary ring to be only in Metric, but this however applies a different design approach to the lens barrel it self that also needs different considerations, which are given, yet not a priority.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

In my opinion, you'll never please both markets of still and cine. There is no such thing. People who take photos don't care about slight uneven field illumination, breathing, image shift, telescoping focusing or other issues because they want fast, light and small lenses. Cine lenses have the benefit to production by having superior mechanics and build quality among other things. They are almost always heavier, larger and more expensive, but for a reason and those reasons conflict with the stills guys.

The people I work with, including myself, would never use photography lenses to shoot our work, with rare exceptions and likewise photographers would never spend 22,000/lens to lug around 7lbs lenses to take photographs with, despite them being some of the most exacting tools of optical creation. You can make a lens set down the middle but you'll lose a huge majority of each end of the spectrum. You might as well find a specific market and make some excellent lenses for them and just them. A jack of all trades is a master of none.

Trying to make a lens that pleases cinema and stills is something that likely won't happen. You'll just catch the market of Cp.2 crowds. Any more expensive and say goodbye to the photography crowd.

my .02.

 

[Nathaniel Kramer]

Lets be realistic here. This is a gargantuan task. I think there are better things to spend your time AND OTHER PEOPLES money on. To presume you will be successful in developing a lens worthy of Dragon, and matching the quality of Masters, Leicas. Ultras and Cooke, is naive. And lets not forget how much proper R&D will cost, or how will you source a quality manufacturer ? The only company's that could build these lenses, already make them. I think your only possible and affordable path is to rehouse still lenses. But those rehoused lenses will never match the optics of the big boys. im happy to shoot my glass at 5.5k. I care more about the added dynamic range. And then there is the money component. Yes, the money. Dreams are easy but getting people to write a check is not. If past performance is an indicator of future performance, then the likelihood of a successful crowd funding scheme is minute.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

In my opinion, you'll never please both markets of still and cine. There is no such thing. People who take photos don't care about slight uneven field illumination, breathing, image shift, telescoping focusing or other issues because they want fast, light and small lenses. Cine lenses have the benefit to production by having superior mechanics and build quality among other things. They are almost always heavier, larger and more expensive, but for a reason and those reasons conflict with the stills guys.

The people I work with, including myself, would never use photography lenses to shoot our work, with rare exceptions and likewise photographers would never spend 22,000/lens to lug around 7lbs lenses to take photographs with, despite them being some of the most exacting tools of optical creation. You can make a lens set down the middle but you'll lose a huge majority of each end of the spectrum. You might as well find a specific market and make some excellent lenses for them and just them. A jack of all trades is a master of none.

Trying to make a lens that pleases cinema and stills is something that likely won't happen. You'll just catch the market of Cp.2 crowds. Any more expensive and say goodbye to the photography crowd.

my .02.

Completely agree with you here Ryan,

and that is why I am certainly not interested in pleasing any one in the Photography world, including my self, this project is for PL mount Cine cameras that is why they are Cine Lenses not for Still Cameras, and the specificity of the task at hand here is clear as day, no compromises made any were to try to please all markets, I know exactly what I have in mind and whom this lenses will be for.

Lets be realistic here. This is a gargantuan task. I think there are better things to spend your time AND OTHER PEOPLES money on. To presume you will be successful in developing a lens worthy of Dragon, and matching the quality of Masters, Leicas. Ultras and Cooke, is naive. And lets not forget how much proper R&D will cost, or how will you source a quality manufacturer ? The only company's that could build these lenses, already make them. I think your only possible and affordable path is to rehouse still lenses. But those rehoused lenses will never match the optics of the big boys. im happy to shoot my glass at 5.5k. I care more about the added dynamic range. And then there is the money component. Yes, the money. Dreams are easy but getting people to write a check is not. If past performance is an indicator of future performance, then the likelihood of a successful crowd funding scheme is minute.

Some times I wonder why you have it in for me, Nathaniel... Others I just could care less...

But your continuos show of negativity towards me has become quite annoying...

You made it clear at every occasion in every thread of mine and had to have posts of yours deleted too...

Yet still here you are voicing your unrequested negative opinion in yet an other thread of mine, I wonder why you bother at all, yet here I am wasting my time entertaining your post and answering you.


Have you bother at all to read anything I posted in this very thread?

I have not made any of such statements, am simply striking ot build a set of Cine Lenses fit to work on Dragon.

Have you not read that this attempt is been made by talking to some of the major lens manufacturers in the world?

And NO matter the failure or success of this project or others, I will never be truly effected by naysayers like yourself.

Realism is for people like you, not for me, I don't leave in your world, you do.

I am bound by no limits, my mind is free from any, and in such state I DREAM, and move forward with any projects in confidence, no matter the results I get at the end at list I have tried.

I never see negativity in anything, only positivity and with that I move forward in life, bypassing all obstacles, trumping over any one that with their negativity tries to stop me.


I have fallen many times in life, yet I have always found the strength to get up, and no matter how many more times life will have me fallen... I will always get up stronger then when I have fallen!!

 

[Chris Husz]

Good luck with this Ketch.
Im more interested in Anamorphics at the time, but this will surely be awesome!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thanks Chris,

I actually tough about the Ana's for awhile also, but to me they just are no longer really worth the benefit within the Digital Sensor realm, and the actual DOF and flare characteristics which are really the only advantages in Digital, are not my top interest in ANA's, and having to deal with the post that goes with them just to gain that little, very subtle DOF and a flare I can easily recreate at will in POSt, is just not worth the effort, in Film on the other end it is still very much worth but since I never shot and never will shoot Film in motion, they are not for me.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Ketch,
This is a huge dream. Not every body can dream this. And even if people dream it, they can't speak it aloud. And if they can speak about it, they won't move ahead and try to make it successful. You seem to be one of those rare breeds. I believe that with the technology available, lenses can be designed much faster. With assured numbers, manufacturers should talk with you. All the best.
Cheers,
Sabyasachi

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Ketch,
This is a huge dream. Not every body can dream this. And even if people dream it, they can't speak it aloud. And if they can speak about it, they won't move ahead and try to make it successful. You seem to be one of those rare breeds. I believe that with the technology available, lenses can be designed much faster. With assured numbers, manufacturers should talk with you. All the best.
Cheers,
Sabyasachi

Thanks for the kind words of support Sabyasachi,

I do in fact consider my self, absolutely NOT above any one, but a rare breed for sure, one of those that isn't EVER afraid to DREAM BIG, and talk about, with out fear of been joked about, or fear that in failure my name might be tough of less, no such fears rest in my mind, I have been failing all my life, and I have no problem continuing to fail in trying to make those HUGE DREAMS a reality...

Because in my hearth I know that one day I'll be successful, and that one day will repay with rewards for a lifetime of failures...

 

[Björn Benckert]

Thanks Chris,

I actually tough about the Ana's for awhile also, but to me they just are no longer really worth the benefit within the Digital Sensor realm, and the actual DOF and flare characteristics which are really the only advantages in Digital, are not my top interest in ANA's, and having to deal with the post that goes with them just to gain that little, very subtle DOF and a flare I can easily recreate at will in POSt, is just not worth the effort, in Film on the other end it is still very much worth but since I never shot and never will shoot Film in motion, they are not for me.

It's a lot of benefits with ana's and digital.

1. you get twice as good debayer without loosing width.

2. The "Virtual sensor size" gets bigger. I do not know the exact numbers but the math goes kind of like this with the epic as an example.

When shooting 5k FF your sensor is about 27,5mm in width. When shooting 5k ANA you only use (Ithink it is) about 17,5mm of the sensor in on the horisontal, but that number you need to multiply by 2 to get the "virtual" sensor width. So basically shooting epic with 2x ana lenses gives you the look of a 32mm sized sensor... on dragon even more...

3. Your dof becomes very different as you also stay on twice as long lenses. a 35mm is like a 17mm and so on. And your dof is oval, something at least I find much more pleasing to the eye than round dof, as it somehow separate the forground and background in a very nice way.

4. All the nice aritfacts... those some like others don't. overly used it's not really flattering, but that goes for all flares and such I think.

5. an example, check how nice you can separate a person in a crowd (this time it's me with superman t shirt all tired on set) even with a wide ass 35mm (same as spherical 17mm) in a crowd.

http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/superman.jpg

6. so if you add the dragon into th mix that will give you a virtual sensor size of over 35mm (I do not know the exact messurement) with plenty of resolution. That is not possible with sphericals on the same camera.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Björn, all good points, which I am aware of them, but at the end of the day, I at one time looked in to it on both the 2x and 1.3x formats, and almost purchased a set of Hawks, but at the end of the day I simply don't particularly like what they bring on the RED EPIC, and I would have used them as part of gained resolution for particular project I had, but since it is not so much so with digital sensors as it was designed to be in Film negatives, I lost the full gain of that main benefit, all else that they bring to me is not enough to have to deal with Ana's workflow and size and weight of their limited lenses.


An interesting read form RED: http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/anamorphic-lenses


Anamorphic lenses have played various roles as capture has transitioned from film to digital. With film, anamorphics were originally designed to utilize more film area with wide format imagery, which in turn increased resolution and reduced grain. However, digital sensors are typically better-suited to wide format cinema than standard 35 mm film. The benefits are instead primarily for imparting a unique look with a shallower depth of field and characteristic bokeh, flare and vignetting. This signature anamorphic style has been an important creative tool with several recent digital and film productions.

 

[Ash Worth]

Ketch, you have to expect that people will knock you when you start such ambitious threads. I think it's good to discuss developing products, film ideas etc in a forum as you get feedback from people who actually have experience in what you want to do. Here you can learn about the real difficulties and challenges of the projects you want to achieve. A more humble approach would to be to ask for feedback instead of announcing something that does not exist.

I'm not sure you appreciate how difficult it is to make a film or develop a product. It takes a lot of work to make something of quality, a lot of work. And then more. In most cases the people who achieve this have years of experience, working constantly and quietly for many years. When you announce that you will do something of equal quality with no apparent experience or history of work you undermine the achievement of others. This is why you get negative reactions.

I know you like the dreamer narrative, 'the guy who dreams big who people tell he will never make it' but this is a construct of Hollywood, it's not real. Another archetype exists in Western culture and that is the 'the boy who cried wolf'.

Stand behind your last thread and make a short film this year.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Ash,

I welcome criticism, but only when is of assistance, and this is why I post, there is a hand full of users here, and Nathaniel is one of them that for some reason, find noting better then to always have something negative to say about me, no matter the thread no matter the discussion, and that has gotten really old, I had post deleted of his for the same reason, but I entertained to answer this one.

It does not help any one, not me, nor any one truly interested in the read here.


The Short Film is right on schedule to be shot as soon as I get to LA this fall.


As for this project, was already par of past project left to sleep, which I now have awaken, and it is not something that will require too much of my time as it is meant to be a collaborative work with other Lens Manufacturers, and am in talk with several already with some possibilities, if I see I can't do it, I will let go of it, but why not try when I can?

All it will cost me additionally at this point are few trips to Germany and an other location, and some of my time before I get back to LA, well worth the effort I say for what can be achieved, and since we really needed it, I don't see why I should not pursue it.


People can think of me what ever they want, at the end I know exactly were I am headed, and what is in store for me, yet I also understand very well the "Crying wolf" story, and I also understand that all the talk and no much delivered on my side does not surely work on my favor, but hey, that is life, and I am surely not about to let that influence how I will continue to push my self to make things happen...


At the end of the day, I post here because I like and want to share wit my community what I am up to, if any one here does not like it, all they have to do is stay out, if they think is going to be an other failure they can just seat and watch, but there is on need for negativity, not here, not inn this forum, not amongst us, not to me, which I have not ever wronged any one, and done nothing but help this community in any way I could for the past 7 years.


All I ask is for people to be kind one an other in here, and to be respectful and not trow SHIT on any one's Dreams, or project, if you wish to participate, do so kindly and respectfully, you can voice an opinion any time, and say this is a very hard one to accomplish Ketch, but best of luck any ways, that is all aI ask, others have done so respectfully, and this thread was just fine till He stepped in with his usual crap against me, He has done so before, and even PM'd me saying S(*^&% against the fact of my work, while his work this and that.


Any ways, thanks for your tough, I know you are right, on this one, and trust me that the Short film in line big time, and this will not delay it a bit.



OKAY... Now back to topic PLEASE...

 

[Alan Peterson]

A 600mm T2.8 or an 800mm T2.8 sounds intriguing. Would the super telephotos be available as singles or would they only be sold as a set?

 

[Martin Stevens]

Best of luck with this Ketch.

This sounds awesome!

 

[David Battistella]

Ketch,

re-reading Nathaiel's post I am not sure it is all negative. I think that taking on the task of creating the next greatest cinema lens set in the world is HUGE. Everything he states here is sound advice to consider when taking on a project of this magnitude.

Let's not forget, even RED, a pretty major player with decent resources has kinda stopped producing the RRP glass and gotten out of the glass game, even after producing the mini primes for a prototype Scarlet.

No one is crushing your dream here, just helping point out what to look out for.

I'd take this is constructive criticism. But that's just me.

David

Lets be realistic here. This is a gargantuan task. I think there are better things to spend your time AND OTHER PEOPLES money on. To presume you will be successful in developing a lens worthy of Dragon, and matching the quality of Masters, Leicas. Ultras and Cooke, is naive. And lets not forget how much proper R&D will cost, or how will you source a quality manufacturer ? The only company's that could build these lenses, already make them. I think your only possible and affordable path is to rehouse still lenses. But those rehoused lenses will never match the optics of the big boys. im happy to shoot my glass at 5.5k. I care more about the added dynamic range. And then there is the money component. Yes, the money. Dreams are easy but getting people to write a check is not. If past performance is an indicator of future performance, then the likelihood of a successful crowd funding scheme is minute.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

A 600mm T2.8 or an 800mm T2.8 sounds intriguing. Would the super telephotos be available as singles or would they only be sold as a set?

The idea is to sale all lenses both as Sets and as Singles, especially the Super Telephoto ones... But Pre-Orders of full sets might take priority, too early to say at this time.

Might also take a bit longer to actually put out the Super Telephotos in relation to the standard Focal ones, but all would be matched in Built quality, color and fill of the Barrel, and Focus Markings as well as all technical aspects of the lenses, think of what RED has done with their RPP's and the beautiful 300mm, just a bit higher end, a bit more pricy, but with precise Focus Markings in quantity, the lens might also actually end up being a bit larger, especially the Barrel's Diameter, as I wish for the Focus Markings Rings to be extremely populated, yet not only precise, but easy to work with in any set up and or environment, and for that is my strong opinion that they need to be bit bigger then in current standard Cine Lenses.

Best of luck with this Ketch.

This sounds awesome!

Thanks Martin!