NEW FF+ Cine Lenses... For DRAGON... In the works...

[Ketch Rossi]

EDIT:

I have initiated and am now in active talks with some major Lens manufacturers, and others have communicated with me after reading this very thread.

Some of this companies have already spent years in R&D yet have not reached a final conclusion on what to provide, while some have, yet are willing to modify thru my direct input the final design and specs of the lenses to be made.

I will be traveling to their individual Lens Factories, and discuss all possibilities with them and their Engineers.


This is a very positive move forward in bringing this project to life... Upon each visit to this Lens Manufacturers Factories and after having talked with their CEO's I'll report here.



Okay,

with the amazing new DRAGON sensor... I see an opportunity to finally bring to work my plan of building a very High End "MINI" Master Primes type BUILD quality FULL FRAME+ Image Circle coverage Cine Prime Lenses...

.. With a possible extended Set range of SuperTelephotos to match.


What I look to bring to life is a Set of VERY FAST Full Frame+ Cine Primes in the T1.3 range... And Fast Super telephotos, in the T2.8 range.

..And to be made asap...

What I wish to accomplish is not to try and compete to already existing fantastic lenses such as the Master Primes and or Leica cine primes, but to create a new set, were I control the exact fill and look of the actual construction of the body, and the fill of it, as well as the mechanics and the image they produce, not worrying too much about eliminating entirely their natural artifacts such as Chromatic Aberration, Flaring, and other characteristics, considered flows by some , yet they are part of what makes a lens, but I will surely pay more attention to Color matching the set as closely as possible within budget permissions, as well as make them super Sharp, capable of resolve incredible detail, and control the Breathing nearly to elimination of it.

Just one must not expect to be over delivered when working to bring a set on a Budget, as if one wishes near perfection then there are the Master Primes, and the Leica's. with a price to match.

I'll be creating a team to organize a base of operations in LA area, and source all materials, mean while I wanted to put this up to see interest in such lenses, which will sale both individually or a sets, most likely various composition Set options.


No longer need Investors to eat up profits, I'll do a Kickstarter campaign to rase funds to finalize R&D and Production & Distribution of this lenses... As son as I get more details and have the Basic team together...


Of course I have also been talking to and will continue to talk to Glass Manufacturers and some of the most well known and renown Lenses manufacturers in the world to get this up and running, it is just a manner of resolving some Copyright and Contractual agreements issues and we'll be ready to go, the possibilities are there to bring to life the most incredible set of lenses ever created for Full Frame!!

I will not say that I have Investors for this project, I only will say that I have been thinking abut doing this for awhile, and there are some interested people in doing this as a Joint venture with me, but I wish to keep this as a small GROUP as possible in order to keep the price down, and preferably sale a S&%$ load of lenses, instead of making them so expensive that only a few can afford them, like some of the well know brands do in the Cine Primes world.

Most important thing right now is to figure out exactly what is the amount of Lenses (sets) I need to put together in a Pre-Sale in order for one of this BIG Lens manufacturers to take my project in serious consideration, and also to see with certainty a final Price and specs.


***Further more, it looks as if we'll need 100 Sets to be Secured for this to go thru, as such is the quantity in need for a Serious and well know Lens Manufacturer in order to be seriously considered, I believe similarly as it was for the Master Primes and Leica's Cine Primes.


Let's see if we can do with Cine Lenses what RED has done in the Digital Cinema Camera world...

 

[Petri Teittinen]

A very interesting project, Ketch. The very best of luck with it!

 

[Phil Holland]

Well, you've peaked my curiosity. I spent several years (and a good chunk of change) exploring the possibility of doing this. I even did the foot work on speaking to a few fairly high profile designers in an attempt to learn all that I could about this field and design. A set from scratch that is optically sound that covers large formats like this would be a difficult endeavor, but a worthy one.

Competition is around at the moment in the T1.5 realm. T1.5 that will be coming in around $4K a lens no less. When those hit the market is a question mark.

My one concern is time. This sort of project for even a small set of lenses will take well over 2 years at a minimum to execute. With proper optical engineers, sourcing high quality optical grade glass, and setting up and creating some of the machinery itself (and software for that matter); this is going to be a costly affair. Very costly. There's a great deal of other variable to consider.

Other concerns come into play. Like cost of research, development, and manufacturing combined with projected demand and time to market coming into play. I have approximate numbers on cinema grade primes sold and available in the world. This is one of the scariest industries at the moment in my opinion. Competition is rampant and the major players are making options that can be improved on in a variety of ways.

So, I'd say considered me interested. But know that the big guys are also thinking similarly (one of which is currently working on a new extremely high quality series of optics) and some newer guys are coming soon.

I can see some things that easier with modern technology, but creating optics (and don't even get me started on coatings, lubricants, and manufacturing tolerances) is very difficult work.

So yeah, interested. But there's going to be a lot of competition in this realm in the next 2-3 years.

Something I need to consider personally, my professional career at the moment as a filmmaker is pretty much what I've been giving my 100% attention. And considering I'm up at 5:30am working on a project I'd say that's closer to 170% of my attention. I'd have to weigh what sort of time investment an endeavor like this would provide really.

 

[Eric Z]

Ketch,
Lens making is a serious business, with the kind of know-how and expertise that only few have.
And those few are probably already working at Zeiss, Schneider or Leica (basically German elite). A few experts at Canon, Nikon and Fuji as well.

As Phil stated, it will take a long time and a lot of resources to accomplish what you have in mind.
I wish you good luck, but this is going to be seriously hard.

 

[David Kellermann]

I'm not sure it can be done... just because it's so time consuming to develop a whole new set of lenses. I'm working on a group buy of rehoused Leica still lenses / Schneider Kreuznach Xenon lenses. They offer amazing quality, FF image circle and are way below 10kUSD per lens. But just a few of the Leica lenses are as fast as T1.4. A fast wide angle / super tele would be amazing! So if you start this project, I'm definitely interested!

 

[Ethan Knight]

Not trying to discourage anyone from the process and I personally welcome innovative projects but here's my two cents.

A while back, good friend of mine and I have embarked on a journey of designing and manufacturing several types of multi glass element prime conversion lenses. The ones that screw on-top existing lenses and create various focal changes.

Now I hold a MSc in electronics engineering and my friend is an optical designer and engineer. To cut a long story short, even though our design was fairly simple and involved no moving parts no zoom elements and basically 4 glass elements embedded in an aluminum casing, we couldn't get off the ground. As mentioned above most technical knowledge is in those countries with very advanced high performance knowledge industry (Japan, Germany). We couldn't find anyone willing to materialize our design (without an incredibly hefty down payment)
We now have a two working prototype which were very costly but are effn' amazing.

I cant even imagine the level of difficulty of achieving a top-of-the-line T1.3 including internal aperture blades...just thinking about it makes me sweat.

Either way if you happen to materialize your dream, I'd be happy to buy them.

Good luck

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thanks guys... And all have very good points... BUT...

This is not an endeavor I have tough of taking just now, some of you know personally and some other via this very forum that this is something I have been working on for a while, and spent a good amount of money my self, it was in fact to be one of th every first items to be produced upon the opening of the first section of the laboratories as part of my Mega Project... That in the past... for now.

This is not something I am to do, alone, quiet the opposite in fact, this is something been proposed to several Manufacturers to back my idea and deliver my design at my suggested cost, with the possibility of a certain amount Pre-Sold, more likely in need to be in the proximity of 100 Set as stated in original thread... It is no t easy, but all very possible, and inded in th works... Just need confirm few things, and get few talks done, specs finalized, possibility of costs, and there we go.


Also one main challenge I am posing the Lens Manufacturer that will back my project, is TIME, I will not go for a set in 2 years time, I WANT this lenses in less then ONE YAER time, in fact the time frame I have given for the first sets is 6 MONTHS from signing of agreement...


DRAGON is coming September and I strive for the first set of this lenses by FIRST Quarter 2014...

 

[Ketch Rossi]

More food for tough then...


Would a company like Zeiss, Leica, Canon, Nikon, or any other large Lens Manufacturer... Or the likes be able to make this happen??

I'll say yes!

You have no idea, well I actually imagine many of you do, especially those that like me travel a lot the world around and those that are truly up with times...

How many Glass Manufacturers are out there with the capacity to deliver, and the NEED to have such a project to save their company or simply to push it forward,m or to just give it an additional JULE... All I am doing is Bring this to them...

And in return I bring a new Set of Lenses to our Global Filmmaking Community and give DRAGON fuel for his fire... And help him BURN some Images in those SSD's...


Besides, if we don't try to get what we need made... Whom will?

If I succeed we all win, if I don't no biggy, to the next project...

 

[Brandon J.F.]

No longer need Investors to eat up profits, I'll do a Kickstarter campaign to rase funds to finalize R&D and Production & Distribution of this lenses... As son as I get more details and have the Basic team together...

You can only use Kickstarter if you have prototypes built already.

 

[Sergei Franklin]

If Nikon would make the equivalent of CP2s with their lenses. It would cover a much larger focal length range. All Full Frame.
three 2.8 zooms, 1.4 from 24 to 85mm, 2.0 from 105 to 200mm, 300 and 400 at 2.8, macro, 3 tilt shift, fisheye.
They just need to design a faster 14 and 20mm.

 

[Dan Kanes]

Schneider SuperSpeed Mark IV's ?

What about a 100 person group buy of set of 6 Leica Summilux for 60k/set?

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

I don't think the Leica Summilux-C series cover 100% of the 6K Dragon sensor, that's why Ketch is doing trying to do this titanic task....(I think).

 

[Jarred Land]

I don't think the Leica Summilux-C series cover 100% of the 6K Dragon sensor, that's why Ketch is doing trying to do this titanic task....(I think).

Yes they do all the way down to 16.. at 16 you get a small amount of transmission loss in the corner but no hard vignettes and definitely usable.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Yes they do all the way down to 16.. at 16 you get a small amount of transmission loss in the corner but no hard vignettes and definitely usable.

Hey Jarred, I was using Phil's table here to make that statement:

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_leicaSummiluxCPrimess.png

Is this not accurate?

 

[Bing Bailey]

if red made a new set of RPP's that covered dragon 6k with the same tstop and were half the weight they would be snapped up

 

[Ketch Rossi]

You can only use Kickstarter if you have prototypes built already.

I know Brandon...

Schneider SuperSpeed Mark IV's ?

What about a 100 person group buy of set of 6 Leica Summilux for 60k/set?

Not a chance.. Plus whom wants to wait 2 to 3 years for theirs sets?

I don't think the Leica Summilux-C series cover 100% of the 6K Dragon sensor, that's why Ketch is doing trying to do this titanic task....(I think).

Not the main issue Marcos, as the cost of them is the real issue for the majority of our fellow Reduser Filmmakers.

Yes they do all the way down to 16.. at 16 you get a small amount of transmission loss in the corner but no hard vignettes and definitely usable.

That is great news Jarred, and as at first I feared Phil's test reported most of the wide Focal to vignette, but since He mentioned slight vignette, as I replied, till I see it my self at what amount they vignette, and what I can use at full 6K I would not make a big deal of it, and your confirmation of it is reassuring as I love those lenses, and can't wait to shoot my first project with them on DRAGON...

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

if red made a new set of RPP's that covered dragon 6k with the same tstop and were half the weight they would be snapped up

+1!!!

 

[Björn Benckert]

I will probably mostly use my FD set or hawks with the dragon. The FD's give Full coverage are super sharp, super small, super light... and the hawk C's are perfect for the Ana mode.

I do not really care much for over sized super expansive cine lenses without any really defined character. Ultra primes, master primes, the cooke's etc look sharp and great wide open, but with the sensor size of the dragon in combination with the high iso it will not really be that often that such lenses and lens settings are really needed.


But then again, I could probably cut off my right arm to get a set of the spherical hawk 1.0's, I really hope they made them to cover full FF or even more. Those and a 65mm Super dragon is the thing to dream for when this dragon stuff actually soon is the common standard

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Björn don't you have a post about your FD lenses somewhere? These are modded and not rehoused correct?

 

[Shiblon Wixom]

I believe it was posted somewhere on reduser that 5.5k on the dragon was the same size as 5k on the Epic, higher photosite density on the dragon. So anything that works on 5k Epic will work for 5.5k Dragon, as I understand it, at the very least.