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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NEW FF+ Cine Lenses... For DRAGON... In the works...

Jarred Land said:
Yes they do all the way down to 16.. at 16 you get a small amount of transmission loss in the corner but no hard vignettes and definitely usable.
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Marcos Montenegro said:
Hey Jarred, I was using Phil's table here to make that statement:

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_leicaSummiluxCPrimess.png

Is this not accurate?
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Matt Ryan said:
I'm not 100% sure but I think Phil mixed up the Master Primes with the Leica's.
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Again, please read the expanded coverage notes. Less panic.


Phil Holland said:
Here are my "expanded Leica Summilux-C Notes".

18mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
21mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
25mm - Uneven corner illumination at 6K wide open.
35mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
40mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
50mm - Covers 6K, vignettes when iris at T22 and focused past 9 feet.
75mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats
100mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats

What can be discerned from this? In one way or another they are usable wide open until about T4 on Dragon at 6K and 6K WS. However, the initial graphics involve "clean coverage". This is why Jim is right and the numbers are right. It is a very noticeable vignette roll off however. T1.4-T2.8 and up until T4 you may find success and lovely images.
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Yea, the confusion is surely there, but all do to misinterpretation... For me mostly as a surprise as I tough they would cover fully all formats, no vignetting any were... But still, as I said and we'll say one last time, I will await further opinions on them till I shoot them on Dragon...

Mean while I will look forward to the possibility to bring this new set of FF Cine Glass to life... ;)
 
First Update...

First Update...

One more major Lens Manufacturer just replied to my latest inquiry, and will report soon on that front... ;)

I truly like to see done, for my own good and for the good of every Filmmaker out there not in a position or willing to pocked out 20K+ per a fantastic Cine Lens, but much would be preferable to have them in the well below 10k marking.
 
I might be wrong but before we know it we will all start to look for lenses like these instead of those highspeed small projection lenses that we are longing for today... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-RB67...ur-Lenses-50-65-90-180-and-More-/221263892674

When sensor get bigger and iso's higher old hassellblad medium format lenses will be high in demand. Today you can buy them for a couple of hundred bucks each on ebay and get a nostalgic camera included in the deal.


So I think it's vice to think far beyond FF as that's pretty much here all ready. But when we get around the next corner I think things will be a lot bigger and FF lenses will then be just as unpopular as 16mm lenses :)

So Ketch if you are going into lens fabrication I would sugest starting with the medium format and work out whats available and what is good to rehouse etc.
 
My quest is for new lenses to cover well beyond DRAGON, but serve it well...

Rehoused MF Lenses are all but a great tough, one which I share Björn, especially for the absolutely fantastic Leica S series, however the biggest challenge with MF lenses is that we'll not have long focal available, as a long MF will turn in to a standard and a standard in to wide and a wide in to super wide, nonetheless it is considered, just not for this project.
 
Ketch, you would need at least 3 to 5 million EUR to pay for a development of that lens set and then later to find a facility to produce it (probably in Japan).

But also with that amount of money you would be able make a feature film in Italy!!!!
 
Björn Benckert said:
I might be wrong but before we know it we will all start to look for lenses like these instead of those highspeed small projection lenses that we are longing for today... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-RB67...ur-Lenses-50-65-90-180-and-More-/221263892674

When sensor get bigger and iso's higher old hassellblad medium format lenses will be high in demand. Today you can buy them for a couple of hundred bucks each on ebay and get a nostalgic camera included in the deal.


So I think it's vice to think far beyond FF as that's pretty much here all ready. But when we get around the next corner I think things will be a lot bigger and FF lenses will then be just as unpopular as 16mm lenses :)

So Ketch if you are going into lens fabrication I would sugest starting with the medium format and work out whats available and what is good to rehouse etc.
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That Mamiya glass is really great. I used to shoot almost exclusively medium format, and my Mamiya glass was always my favorite. Unfortunately, medium format glass tends to be pretty slow! :(
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Ketch, you would need at least 3 to 5 million EUR to pay for a development of that lens set and then later to find a facility to produce it (probably in Japan).

But also with that amount of money you would be able make a feature film in Italy!!!!
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More like 10Million Sanjin, but if the deal comes to past with a know lens manufacturer as I hope and my design in a collaborative production comes to fruition, then I am sure I should have no problem securing that, once it is shown that there is a market for it and buyers ready with deposits placed for the first 100 Sets to start... ;)


BTW, my feature Film will be made in LA, even so locations in Italy might still be used, it will be entirely and American Movie.
 
there is a TON of great medium format glass out there and afaik quite a few canon and nikon adapters for different mounts....most old MF lenses have built in shutters, so they are slow by design because of that....
with dragon i am pretty sure a lot of these lenses won't make a lot of sense because, yes, they cover a lot (much, much more then dragon) and yes dragon only uses the sweet spot, but most of these lenses weren't built to resolve that much information....even MF film (and even more so 4x5 and 8x10 film) was made differently/for lower resolution/sq inch then 35mm film...so 35mm lenses were made to resolve more/better per sq inch then MF lenses....
digital medium format backs with similar pixel density as DSLRs show this clearly....
some lenses might work, for most it just isn't worth the hassle...
if anyone wants to play with older, manual glass that covers FF, the old leica M glass is great, there are lots of options, there is a RED M-mount and there are also a lot of modern, cheaper very interesting M mount lenses...voigtlander for example....
 
I know it's far from the best to use photo lenses for cine applications...

but with the EPIC, i use the little Zeiss ZFs Cine modded by Duclos and old Canon FDs.

VERY cheap and two very different looks.

From f2 and up, they can be quite sharp, and from f2.8, they all are very sharp.

That said, an affordable set of FF cine lenses (lightweight please :) ) would indeed be welcome :)

Antoine
 
I am not sure why Nikon hasn't jumped on the bandwagon of making cine lenses...and I don't quite understand why lenses like cp.2 and canon cine primes are almost three times the price of their photo lenses siblings... Tom from ALLSTAR and Nan from GL are able to mod and cinevise those photo lenses at a fraction of those prices...I don't see why those BIG companies cannot make their own photo cine lenses cheaper...
 
Maz Mawlawi said:
I am not sure why Nikon hasn't jumped on the bandwagon of making cine lenses...and I don't quite understand why lenses like cp.2 and canon cine primes are almost three times the price of their photo lenses siblings... Tom from ALLSTAR and Nan from GL are able to mod and cinevise those photo lenses at a fraction of those prices...I don't see why those BIG companies cannot make their own photo cine lenses cheaper...
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I think it comes down to this...canon sells 1000 lenses for each cine lens they sell.....simple as that.....I don't think the cine lenses of the same design are in any way optically better then the normal lenses.....and we see with the rokinons what can be done on a budged....I think nikon is not making cameras so it makes little sense for them to jump in with a whole line that targets such a small market....
we see Schneider coming out with a (for them definitely) bargain line that looks VERY promising.....
and lets not forget that a couple of years ago almost nobody actually owned a camera.....now with all the DSLRs, BMCs, REDs.....the market for actually buying lenses has blown up.....
 
nailed it:
Phil Holland said:
Well, you've peaked my curiosity. I spent several years (and a good chunk of change) exploring the possibility of doing this. I even did the foot work on speaking to a few fairly high profile designers in an attempt to learn all that I could about this field and design. A set from scratch that is optically sound that covers large formats like this would be a difficult endeavor, but a worthy one.

Competition is around at the moment in the T1.5 realm. T1.5 that will be coming in around $4K a lens no less. When those hit the market is a question mark.

My one concern is time. This sort of project for even a small set of lenses will take well over 2 years at a minimum to execute. With proper optical engineers, sourcing high quality optical grade glass, and setting up and creating some of the machinery itself (and software for that matter); this is going to be a costly affair. Very costly. There's a great deal of other variable to consider.

Other concerns come into play. Like cost of research, development, and manufacturing combined with projected demand and time to market coming into play. I have approximate numbers on cinema grade primes sold and available in the world. This is one of the scariest industries at the moment in my opinion. Competition is rampant and the major players are making options that can be improved on in a variety of ways.

So, I'd say considered me interested. But know that the big guys are also thinking similarly (one of which is currently working on a new extremely high quality series of optics) and some newer guys are coming soon.

I can see some things that easier with modern technology, but creating optics (and don't even get me started on coatings, lubricants, and manufacturing tolerances) is very difficult work.

So yeah, interested. But there's going to be a lot of competition in this realm in the next 2-3 years.

Something I need to consider personally, my professional career at the moment as a filmmaker is pretty much what I've been giving my 100% attention. And considering I'm up at 5:30am working on a project I'd say that's closer to 170% of my attention. I'd have to weigh what sort of time investment an endeavor like this would provide really.
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Here is the answer as long as its priced right! Get this puppy cinevised or rehoused by Nan and you'll potentially have the future Master Prime on your camera (according to the way Zeiss is talking it up!)

http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/?p=4190

I sooo hope these are priced at $3k or under! But thinking more like double that :-/
 
Ketch! I love that you're enthusiastic about this. I can tell that when you talk about doing something, you're not just thinking aloud. You actually mean what you say and have a plan. I do hope that you succeed. Why not? At worst, what you are doing does not hurt the industry in any way.

However, I do have some constructive criticism. I agree with those who say that you should make lenses for 65mm. Now, that's what I call 'full frame'!! Vistavision is nice, yes, but... so? Surely there are enough manufacturers competing? But few, if any, manufacturers are doing all-new 65mm (or medium format) lenses. Why not strive to be the Cooke or Schneider of 65mm? You'll also have the benefit of being able to offer shift functionality as an option, for those who want to shoot smaller formats. And at the prices you'll be asking, customers will be silly to not consider 65mm-compatible lenses for the same price as, or less than, 35mm lenses.

To understand why I have those opinions, you also have to understand my position on lens design: super-speed apertures are stupid. And if they weren't stupid before Dragon, they are now. What a lens needs more than anything is minimal CA; minimal distortion; minimal light fall-off; consistent performance right across the frame and beyond; pleasant bokeh.

Shallow DOF is a fad. It's a competition to see just how shallow you can make your focus. All of a sudden, still photographers have decided to impose this idea of 'full frame' on movie cameras. Before DSLRs, 8-perf was full frame and 4-perf was half-frame, but for still cameras only. (I believe that the first Leica was acknowledged as 'double frame'). Nobody tried to make 4-perf motion a poorer cousin of 8-perf still. Now, people who probably weren't paying attention while watching Citizen Kane or 2001 think they know everything about what the 'cinematic look' is.

So you can see that my opinions come from a different place. And perhaps I don't truly understand your project. But I will watch this enterprise with interest... :-)

P.S. At the least, make your lenses look fucking cool. B-)
 
Karim,

I agree with you as well, and many of you I guess didn't understood my "+" sign on the thread's "FF+" but I am not just thinking about FF but beyond that, as I too, especially having shot 645 sensors, think BIG.

Yet I am not looking to make MF lenses, just lenses with a larger Image Circle to be usable with any size sensor.

The manufactures I have talked to, and talking to, and about to talk to, all have the same preliminaries about what I look to gain form this new set of Cine Primes, and yes, one thing for sure they will look cool as hell!!

Also in all honesty this is a good time as any to mention that if I was to sacrifice speed for Chromatic Aberration, Even Illumination, Light Fall Off, Flaring, or any other Artifact, I would do so, but most importantly what I look for in this set, is to have a perfectly marked Focus pints to match the highest end Cine lenses as the Master Primes.

Obviously what needs to be understood, is that for well under 10k per lens, you can not get Master Primes, but what you can do is to choose what are the most important items in your list, and move down words form there till budget it is reached.


I am not looking to make Master Primes nor Leica's, we already have those, what I am looking to make is the most affordable best set of Cine Primes like no others out there.
 
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