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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Scarlet Upgrade Program

I know that this may have been covered, but will the Scarlet D have HDR at 5k? I know I read somewhere that the Epic was possibly going to keep the HDR, but with the insane amount of pages for this thread I'm not going to read through everything. Ha. The reason that I ask is not so I have have even more DR but mostly for that second track, X track. It's great to be able to shoot something like sports or fashion, then to be able to create the video that you need with the A track and use the X track to pull sharp stills to make prints from the 14 megapixel image.
 
Jason, Jarred stated that they will keep HDR x. No specifics about Scarlet vs. Dragon but if this would have changed they would have stated it. Though Scarlet Dragons details still are yet to be announced
 
Awesome, I know there's a lot more that needs to be revealed, but you never know with these guys there can be more surprises that can come out. Just need to get my hands on a R3D! Plus I'm interested to see what you're coming up with Phil, seems like you're always looking for ways to progress the RED community.
 
Jason L said:
Plus I'm interested to see what you're coming up with Phil, seems like you're always looking for ways to progress the RED community.
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Heh. The secret's out. I'm certainly a Red shooter. Plus I'm getting really attached to all the Redusers on the forum, the ones I've met in person, the few I've worked with, and some I call friends.

Reduser has some of the most valuable cinema-centric information on the internet. Specifically when it comes to folks like David Mullen's thread, motion picture professionals sharing their experiences, great workflow discussions, and a tremendous wealth of lens knowledge.

It's been a tremendous help for me over the years. I do my best to contribute to that usefulness. Hopefully it can continue being a strong resource for those passionate about their images. Red somehow lured in some good folks.
 
A Tip of the Hat to Phil -- and RED

A Tip of the Hat to Phil -- and RED

Phil -- thanks for all your help in the past ... and thanks in advance for your future help !

The biggest question for me about the Scarlet upgrade (other than which bank to rob) is whether to go Epic & then Dragon, or EPIC-Dragon straight away, or just go Scarlet Dragon) is what to call the upgrade ?

I'm assuming Scarlet Dragon will have HDRx, within the limits of its frame rates.

OK, now the tipping point question:

Do we "Dragon-ize" our cameras ? Or is a camera "Dragon-ated" or "Dragon'd" ? Or "Drag-upped" ?

On a more serious side, if we had, say Sony F5s, would there be a sonyuser.net forum with folks like Phil and Sony's CEO (Kazou "Kaz" Hari) personally leading the charge ? And Sony offering upgrades ?
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT] OK, back to which bank to rob ...

Serge
PS "Kaz" seems like a pretty nice guy, in spite of being CEO of Sony
 
I bought a Scarlet because Epic was out of my price range and it was (and still is) the best overall bang-for-the-buck camera out there under $15K.

While considering my upgrade options I'm trying to keep in mind what I'm getting compared to what I have.

For me, Epic-X represents everything I was perfectly happy living without and didn't miss in Scarlet-X. I never felt the "gateway drug effect" others have. Paying $9,500 for that upgrade gets me more of the same. It sets me up for future top-tier upgrades from RED but it gives me features I don't really have a need for without many improvements in picture quality, better REDcode and HDRx at 4K being the two exceptions. There are several areas where MX could use some improvements.

Scarlet Dragon, on the other hand, gives me more and better (in all probability) for the same $9,500. From there, I can't upgrade to Epic Dragon and some speculate I may not be able to upgrade the camera at all, but it gives me one of the most sophisticated and capable cameras on the market, at any price. It also puts me no worse off than I was with Scarlet-X in relation to Epic-X...for the next few years, anyway.

Let's say I can't upgrade Scarlet Dragon to any future sensors RED develops. Worst case scenario is it puts me on the same footing as everyone else who owns a camera from every other company. I sell it for as much as I can and buy new.

It seems if you're buying a camera based on how much you can sell it for you're buying the wrong camera for the wrong reasons, especially when manufacturers are trying to one-up each other (or themselves) every few months.
 
Jason L said:
I know that this may have been covered, but will the Scarlet D have HDR at 5k? I know I read somewhere that the Epic was possibly going to keep the HDR, but with the insane amount of pages for this thread I'm not going to read through everything. Ha. The reason that I ask is not so I have have even more DR but mostly for that second track, X track. It's great to be able to shoot something like sports or fashion, then to be able to create the video that you need with the A track and use the X track to pull sharp stills to make prints from the 14 megapixel image.
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I spoke to RED Europe a couple of days ago and the Scarlet Upgrade will be able to do 60fps at 5K. I wouldn't be surprised if you can do HDR up to 30fps in 5K.
 
Brian Boyer said:
It seems if you're buying a camera based on how much you can sell it for you're buying the wrong camera for the wrong reasons, especially when manufacturers are trying to one-up each other (or themselves) every few months.
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Of course, but don't you think most reasonable people ought to consider this factor in any large purchase? Particularly for those who make a habit of buying and selling equipment for their kit to optimize their toolchest and minimize expenses? Fortunately business asset depreciation is tax-deductible :)
 
TD Wood said:
1) If we choose the Scarlet Dragon, is that the end of the road in terms of "Obsolence Obsolote" for Scarlet? I know they will continue to deliver wonderful firmware upgrades, but I'm talking about future hardware upgrades (like Dragon now).
2) It would be great to get access to Dragon footage some time in the near future (2-3 months). Being able to play around with some Dragon .R3D files would certainly make any decision easier.
3) Like many users here (I suppose), I'm on a tight budget, so for the time being I can either afford Epic X or Scarlet Dragon. If I choose Epic X, it would be great to know how long will the upgrade plan last (from Epic X to Epic Dragon, I mean). My guess is that it will hold for a reasonable time (2 years at least), but it would be great to hear from RED a more specific time frame just to allow us to plan accordingly.

Anyways, I'm terribly grateful to RED for having this dilema and, as I already stated, there are really no bad choices here to make. Either route is fantastic. If my doubts are answered any time in the near future, great. If not, I guess I would just drop a coin, knowing either choice is a winner.

cheers, compadres.

TD Wood
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Just to complicate your decision even more here was my rationalization for Epic.

1) FOV. This was a big problem I had with Scarlet. I often found myself with just not quite wide enough glass when using Canon lenses. Scarlet D doesn't fix that.
2) Compression. I shoot a lot of VFX plates. 3:1 is way better than 5:1 or 6:1 in my experience. Scarlet D has no committed 3:1 option.
3) Framerate. I lost a couple rentals because they needed 60p. Those rentals almost would have paid for the difference between EpicD and EpicX.
4) Opportunity. If I get an Epic soon (which I'm hoping will be RED's decision) you can rent it out and make some money before Dragon is released. Instant gratification is ap owerful force. ;)
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Just to complicate your decision even more here was my rationalization for Epic.

1) FOV. This was a big problem I had with Scarlet. I often found myself with just not quite wide enough glass when using Canon lenses. Scarlet D doesn't fix that.
2) Compression. I shoot a lot of VFX plates. 3:1 is way better than 5:1 or 6:1 in my experience. Scarlet D has no committed 3:1 option.
3) Framerate. I lost a couple rentals because they needed 60p. Those rentals almost would have paid for the difference between EpicD and EpicX.
4) Opportunity. If I get an Epic soon (which I'm hoping will be RED's decision) you can rent it out and make some money before Dragon is released. Instant gratification is ap owerful force. ;)
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i am going the epic route as well....compression is a big factor for me as well...i really don't have any experience with 3:1...i am hoping for a visible difference to 6:1.....what is the max fps for epic at 5K 3:1?
really hoping that red will make up their minds about the upgrade soon as well....
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Just to complicate your decision even more here was my rationalization for Epic.

1) FOV. This was a big problem I had with Scarlet. I often found myself with just not quite wide enough glass when using Canon lenses. Scarlet D doesn't fix that.
2) Compression. I shoot a lot of VFX plates. 3:1 is way better than 5:1 or 6:1 in my experience. Scarlet D has no committed 3:1 option.
3) Framerate. I lost a couple rentals because they needed 60p. Those rentals almost would have paid for the difference between EpicD and EpicX.
4) Opportunity. If I get an Epic soon (which I'm hoping will be RED's decision) you can rent it out and make some money before Dragon is released. Instant gratification is ap owerful force. ;)
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FOV is fixed with scarlet dragon. 1,3x vs 1,4x is almost nothing. Scarlet-MX 4K was 1,62. And dragon 5K had never been so close to S35.
Prometheus was shot with a compression of 5:1. I guess, if Ridley Scott survived with that, a lot of us can survive too :)
I choosed the scarlet-D because it's a fantastic camera. If Prometheus or the Hobbit were shot on it, it would have looked even better. And everything changes ..... even the prices. The Epic price fell in a few monthes. These updates to epic dragon are nice, but i'm a bit stressed to lose a lot of money during the journey when the models prices will fall in the meantime.
 
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Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Of course, but don't you think most reasonable people ought to consider this factor in any large purchase? Particularly for those who make a habit of buying and selling equipment for their kit to optimize their toolchest and minimize expenses? Fortunately business asset depreciation is tax-deductible :)
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My business acumen probably leaves a lot to be desired but how can one tell which camera is going to keep its monetary value in such a dynamic and competitive market place? You'd certainly want to factor resale value into your decision if you could.

However, it seems a more prudent approach might be to place the majority of "value" on how well you feel it allows you to do what you do. That way, value is relative to each person's experience and can't be dictated by how much the price of the camera falls or how much the next person pays you for it.

I guess I was trying to say if you buy a camera you deem unsuitable to shoot on 2 years later, it may not have met your needs in the first place.
 
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Gavin Greenwalt said:
Just to complicate your decision even more here was my rationalization for Epic.

1) FOV. This was a big problem I had with Scarlet. I often found myself with just not quite wide enough glass when using Canon lenses. Scarlet D doesn't fix that.
2) Compression. I shoot a lot of VFX plates. 3:1 is way better than 5:1 or 6:1 in my experience. Scarlet D has no committed 3:1 option.
3) Framerate. I lost a couple rentals because they needed 60p. Those rentals almost would have paid for the difference between EpicD and EpicX.
4) Opportunity. If I get an Epic soon (which I'm hoping will be RED's decision) you can rent it out and make some money before Dragon is released. Instant gratification is ap owerful force. ;)
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Brian Boyer said:
Scarlet Dragon, on the other hand, gives me more and better (in all probability) for the same $9,500. From there, I can't upgrade to Epic Dragon and some speculate I may not be able to upgrade the camera at all, but it gives me one of the most sophisticated and capable cameras on the market, at any price. It also puts me no worse off than I was with Scarlet-X in relation to Epic-X...for the next few years, anyway.
Let's say I can't upgrade Scarlet Dragon to any future sensors RED develops. Worst case scenario is it puts me on the same footing as everyone else who owns a camera from every other company. I sell it for as much as I can and buy new.
It seems if you're buying a camera based on how much you can sell it for you're buying the wrong camera for the wrong reasons, especially when manufacturers are trying to one-up each other (or themselves) every few months.
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Both excellent points, sheeeeeeeeeeeit!
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Epic Dragon is 1.18x vs Scarlet Dragon 1.4x That's a pretty big FOV change.
http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/redDragonGraphics/phfx_redDragon_cropFactorsDimensionsDiagonals.jpg
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Dragon 5k is close to Mysterium-X 5k, so Scarlet has now nearly the same FOV as EPIC-X MX while having the better sensor and being able to shoot HFR/HDRx at 5k. ;)

I first was thinking mainly about that first EPIC, then EPIC-D-route too, but the question i ask myself is, how often will i need the higher fps of a EPIC-X while i'm saving for the Dragon upgrade vs how often i get use out of that better sensor on a Dragon-Scarlet. And wouldn't it be better to get a ROCKET-X and some other stuff instead of a EPIC-D now? (MoVI maybe, hehe)

Another thought, if i put down the 19k for a upgrade to EPIC-D i trade in my Scarlet for 5k. Great offer, of course, but why not keep it as b-cam/backup-brain "for just 5k more"? And because i already have paid for my Scarlet i could get a new Dragon camera for 9500SUD which would be later, if i ever get the money together to buy a EPCI-D, make a great Dragon-based b-cam.

Weird thinking? Hehe.

BTW, that FOV/crop-faktor in 6k is so tempting... :)
 
From my experience, the biggest "things to be aware of" when prepping for a shoot with a Scarlet-X have been FOV (crop factor), low light performance and FPS. Not having seen any low light footage (let's go RED), and assuming the specs RED posted online remain, for $9,500 (albeit a 90 day warranty) 2 out of 3would have be taken care of...

SCARLET-D
LENS COVERAGE: 25.6mm (h) x 13.5mm (v) x 28.9 mm (d)
Max fps (2.4:1):
1-60 fps 5K
1-75 fps 4K
1-100 fps 3K
1-150 fps 2K

....but then again, if you dig slow-motion at 4K with your current Canon lenses>

EPIC-X
LENS COVERAGE: 27.7mm (h) x 14.6mm (v) x 31.4 mm (d)
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K
1-150 fps 4K
1-200 fps 3K
1-300 fps 2K

...and then for additional $9,500 further down the path (assuming offer remains for 2 yrs):

EPIC-D
LENS COVERAGE: 30.7mm (h) x 15.8mm (v) x 34.5 mm (d)
1-100 fps 6K
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K
1-150 fps 4K
1-200 fps 3K
1-300 fps 2K


SOOOOOO.....if going for FOV and FPS, I think I would take the Epic-X route to eventually have an opportunity to land on Epic-D. However, if Dragon footage is out of this world, specifically low-light performance, then Scarlet-D might do....will await footage before making the plunge.
 
Stupid question but HDRx is brought up here a few times but I dont see any mention of it on the DRAGON specs page?
 
Eric Santiago said:
Stupid question but HDRx is brought up here a few times but I dont see any mention of it on the DRAGON specs page?
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RED was thinking about dropping it for Dragon based cameras, but Jarred made a quick poll and after seeing the demand he said that it will stay.
 
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