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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Scarlet Upgrade Program

There is really only one actual difference between Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon (other than the fact that there are no Scarlet Dragon cameras in existence yet , and there are several Epic Dragon cameras out there and working), and that's processing speed. That's it.

The resolution of the cameras is the same. They are both 6k cameras. Scarlet simply cannot process 6k fast enough to produce 6k 24fps. Window it to its 5k and you're good. That said, when the slower frame rate is appropriate, and for still photography (captured as motion etc.) Scarlet is fully capable at 6k. Epic users who need higher frame rates window their sensor too - the threshold is simply higher.
While it is obviously nicer to have an Epic, The Dragon incarnation of Scarlet seems to fit my needs quite perfectly.
 
Sorry Yuval, but Scarlet Dragon won't have 6K. Also not for stills. Check Jarred's posts or the store for the dragon update.

No official mentioning of a stills option at 6K

( technically it's a 14MP window of the 19 MP Sensor )

SENSOR: 19 MEGAPIXEL RED DRAGON™

ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY: 5120 (h) x 2700 (v)

S/N RATIO: 80db

DYNAMIC RANGE: 16.5+ stops

MAX IMAGE AREA: 5120 (h) x 2700 (v)

LENS COVERAGE: 25.6mm (h) x 13.5mm (v) x 28.9 mm (d)

ACQUISITION FORMATS:
5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, 2.4:1 and Anamorphic 2:1) 4.5K RAW (2.4:1)
4K RAW (16:9, HD, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
3K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
2K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
Click to expand...
 
it is getting very tough to decide with no footage available, I have opportunities on a feature based on the MX sensor as a second camera to another MX sensor, but I also have people who might be interested in renting out Dragon for another feature, and then, there´s me, who at the end will own the camera, whether it is an upgraded Epic-X or revamped Scarlet-Dragon..throw us a bone!
 
Patrick Grossien said:
Sorry Yuval, but Scarlet Dragon won't have 6K. Also not for stills. Check Jarred's posts or the store for the dragon update.

No official mentioning of a stills option at 6K

( technically it's a 14MP window of the 19 MP Sensor )
Click to expand...


Interesting! My apologies if I was mistaken.
My impression at NAB was that the differences between EPIC and SCARLET in their DRAGON incarnation were to remain consistent with the differences between them in their current version, but based on the specs posted on the product page, you are correct. Would be interesting to hear (or read) a more detailed explanation and/or clarification about that from RED directly...
 
Strange though because Scarlet could deliver 12 fps at 5K, of Scarlet Dragon one would expect at the very least 1 fps in 6K
 
Enrique Blein said:
Strange though because Scarlet could deliver 12 fps at 5K, of Scarlet Dragon one would expect at the very least 1 fps in 6K
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As much as I agree with you, I believe RED took a lot of heat for having "unusable" 5K plus it clearly differentiates Epic from Scarlet. So there are two good reasons why they could opt for it even if 1 or 2 fps would be possible.

But I'm sure everyone who also shoots stills would rather have 1 or 2 or 4 fps @ 6K than none at all (including myself). If they keep it this low it might be ok, but it could also call the voices back on the plan with "why doesn't it do x frames more?".

EDIT: I use the 5K 12fps quite a lot for stills. And of course I would love to have "more" but that's Epic's turf so I wait ;)
 
Enrique Blein said:
Strange though because Scarlet could deliver 12 fps at 5K, of Scarlet Dragon one would expect at the very least 1 fps in 6K
Click to expand...
If the hardware can do 60fps at 5K WS, it should be able to do 50fps at 6K WS (seeing how the Scarlet Dragon's specs scale down from 5K to 4K etc. just like the Epic Dragon's specs do, I don't think it's a stretch to assume they would scale up the same as well).
 
Jaakko Rinne said:
If the hardware can do 60fps at 5K WS, it should be able to do 50fps at 6K WS (seeing how the Scarlet Dragon's specs scale down from 5K to 4K etc. just like the Epic Dragon's specs do, I don't think it's a stretch to assume they would scale up the same as well).
Click to expand...
Don't start this ridiculous math-game again. ;) RED has chosen to limit Scarlet-Dragon to 5k and we can buy it or not, end of story.

The reason doesn't really matter, it might be same thing as with Scarlet-X, components that weren't up to the task to go into a EPIC but "good" enough for Scarlet or something else. Even if it's only about saving EPIC-sales, to me this would be totally understandable. Scarlet-X was a big stretch for RED, heavy calculation and risks involved and it got "worse" with the Dragon-upgrade, i'm sure about that.

Come on, Scarlet can now shoot 5k/HFR. This is huge, be happy about that option and don't make it look bad, because simple math "tells" you there "could" be 6k.

Admitted, i had some kind of hope for a 6k-mods on Scarlet too. ;)
 
I still miss the specs on this proposed guy. Full frame 35mm sensor, 3lb body, 6k @ 30fps, 60fps burst. $12k, shipping 2010 ;). It was essentialy 1/3 the framerates for 1/3 the price. Now it's more like 1/4 the framerates for 2/3rds the price. I don't think that Scarlet is the way to go.



On the bright side its epic was supposed to cost $38k but now only costs $24k. So the epic got cheaper and in many ways better (lower compression) and the scarlet got a lot more expensive and suckier. Scarlet-X $ per unit of performance has always been a "bad deal" compared to epic. If you can afford to go epic--go epic. After all, epic owners get Dragon 6k @ 100 fps for $9,500. Scarlet owners get 6k at 0 fps for $9,500. Same price--way worse upgrade. If RED does offer another upgrade do you really want to spend another $10k to once again have an inferior product?

Hypothetical roadmap:
Scarlet -> Epic Dragon 2 = $28k
Scarlet -> Scarlet Dragon 2 = $19k

For $3k more per upgrade cycle you get a way better camera.
 
Maik Müller Menendez said:
Don't start this ridiculous math-game again. ;) RED has chosen to limit Scarlet-Dragon to 5k and we can buy it or not, end of story.

The reason doesn't really matter, it might be same thing as with Scarlet-X, components that weren't up to the task to go into a EPIC but "good" enough for Scarlet or something else. Even if it's only about saving EPIC-sales, to me this would be totally understandable. Scarlet-X was a big stretch for RED, heavy calculation and risks involved and it got "worse" with the Dragon-upgrade, i'm sure about that.

Come on, Scarlet can now shoot 5k/HFR. This is huge, be happy about that option and don't make it look bad, because simple math "tells" you there "could" be 6k.

Admitted, i had some kind of hope for a 6k-mods on Scarlet too. ;)
Click to expand...
I don't really mind losing out on 6K, since 25fps@5K is enough to get me through 99% of whatever I shoot. 50fps@5K will get me through 99.5%. And for the rest there's rentals. But I also think that it would be ridiculous if it was just a software limit on the Scarlet-D, because software limitations on hardware that's more than capable is the sort of thing I personally frown upon.
 
Jaakko Rinne said:
I don't really mind losing out on 6K, since 25fps@5K is enough to get me through 99% of whatever I shoot. 50fps@5K will get me through 99.5%. And for the rest there's rentals. But I also think that it would be ridiculous if it was just a software limit on the Scarlet-D, because software limitations on hardware that's more than capable is the sort of thing I personally frown upon.
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I agree, it is not as simple as $ per megapixel per second. It's about what we need and what we can use. For most, and in this market, it's the first 4k, first 24fps, first 14stops of DR, and the first S35 frame area that make the camera competitive in today's market, the rest is just extra since 90% of people won't really need those features 90% of the time.

Regarding "software" limitations, we don't know yet if it is truly only a software limitation. Perhaps 6k is completely unavailable in Scarlet because Scarlet Dragon sensors are binned in a way that allows them to use 6k sensors with faults or defects in the area outside of the 5k area. Or perhaps they are otherwise binning components in another way that makes 6k particularly impossible for Scarlet. We don't know, but I imagine a lot goes into setting the thresholds for lower binned components so that they can best optimize the yields of their fabbed components. Even if it is "software only" it's important to remember that a product is not a product without software and hardware so you will go crazy wishing for software that does not exist, and products do not exist only for the customer, they are designed to be sold and to optimize the manufacturer's business which usually involves designing products around markets, not around hardware limitations only.
 
i just want chance to upgrade to Epic Dragon from Scarlet Dragon :) i didnt have funds when i choose to upgrade Scarlet Dragon (i know its my fault) now it seems i can raise up funds for Epic Dragon..
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
i just want chance to upgrade to Epic Dragon from Scarlet Dragon :) i didnt have funds when i choose to upgrade Scarlet Dragon (i know its my fault) now it seems i can raise up funds for Epic Dragon..
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If i where in that position i would contact my BS and cancel my order for the Scarlet-Dragon-upgrade or change it into a upgrade to EPIC-X (to be able to make the Dragon upgrade later).
 
If the Scarlet is going to be eligible for the Dragon upgrade and you will be getting Scarlet's back is it possible that you could be selling Battle Tested Scarlets at a lower price point?
 
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