NAB13- Scarlet Upgrade Program

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

So you're saying you think people with Scarlet that get upgraded to Scarlet Dragons will have no further upgrade/trade-in options after that? So Scarlet owners would have no options to continue onto RED's next new body/sensor and Scarlet Dragon would eventually become obsolete? Doesn't that go against obsolescence obsolete? RED would have to be very very clear about that if it were the case, since most of us bought into RED largely because of their obsolescence obsolete advertising. They have been quite good about it in the past, and must know it is a huge part of their products, so they couldn't really just cut customers off without being very clear that a particular upgrade options opts them out of obsolescence obsolete...

 

[Phil Holland]

The way Red has operated in the past with the Red One was to allow one relatively inexpensive upgrade path to Epic.

Meaning one body to another "new tech" body. And that's where the upgrade path for the Red One stopped. Meaning there is no current discount for Red One owners to get any of the upgrade paths that have been made available.

So basically if you are cross upgrading from Scarlet-X to Epic-X with the Mysterium-X sensor it's almost considered a sideways move and you can still upgrade to Epic Dragon.

However, if you are upgrading from Scarlet-X or Epic to Scarlet Dragon or Epic Dragon that's the new tech upgrade path and that's where the road ends.

It's that simple and that's the deal offered.


So that's what we know, but here's some advice overall. If you find yourself wanting Epic Dragon over Scarlet Dragon yet can't afford it right this second, wait for a bit and work for a bit and save up for a bit, then pull the trigger when you can. If you find yourself pretty happy with the specs that Scarlet Dragon provides and know you'll be content with that, go that route.

Remember there is one real way to get from Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon and that's going to be the used marketplace. And these cameras will sell and you'll be able to "create" your own upgrade path when you're ready.

For me personally, I have the cash put aside ready for Epic Dragon because that lines up with what my personal desires and professional needs are from a digital cinema camera. However, it was a tough decision, because I feel all of the paths are pretty damn good ones.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

The problem is that we don't know what is next, and maybe RED doesn't exactly either. So we have sensor upgrades and body upgrades. Dragon is the second sensor upgrade and the Epic was the first body upgrade. But it's hard to say what that means for Scarlet. There was no lesser Red One, so there is no precedence yet for establishing what happens to the budget camera line. Red One M owners were given opportunities to upgrade their sensor the MX, then their body to Epic, then their sensor again to Dragon, and conceivably further body and sensor upgrades far into the future. Scarlet was not part of an upgrade path, but just because it was the starting point of a new product.

I see no real reason yet to think that Scarlet won't be allowed a perpetual upgrade path for future bodies and sensors, except for anyone who does not choose take advantage of offered upgrade paths. I would think the only thing that is a dead end is not taking one of the offered upgrade paths for Scarlet, since once they are no longer offered, Scarlet-X MX will eventually be discontinued and EOL like RED One, and perhaps just like Epic will eventually be if a next body comes out in several years.

It does make me wonder what's next. I imagine RED is sticking with sensor upgrades rather than new bodies if they can keep fitting things into the DSMC body. And why wouldn't they also have Scarlet upgrade to the next sensor as well?

The DSMC body could use further upgrades to fundamental pieces such as adding better protection to the power board (to protect from reversed polarity and other things, which are oddly missing), adding support for 6G HD-SDI, HDMI 2.0, 4k, etc.

If the Scarlet Serial # is executed and not valid for future "trade-ins and credits" that doesn't say anything about sensor/component upgrades, does it?

 

[Trevor Meeks]

Some of you guys just don't give up do ya... LOL.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I just don't get the complaining. Obsolescence obsolete has ALWAYS been referring to buying a new brain and not having to switch all of the rest. Or for example if a new tech comes along for media or what not. You just switch that part and keep the rest.

The additional sensor offerings are on top of that.

If you want Dragon for as little as possible, buy Scarlet-dragon, keep on saving and buy Epic Dragon or the next new full body when available.

Nobody of us knows if the next sensor will fit into the current bodies. Make your camera work for you and stop thinking about something you have no control over. Nobody of us knows when the next big step is coming. And we don't even have dragon yet.

Just remember that RED is the only or at least the first one offering upgrade paths like this at all. So be happy that you get this at all!

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

The way Red has operated in the past with the Red One was to allow one relatively inexpensive upgrade path to Epic.

Meaning one body to another "new tech" body. And that's where the upgrade path for the Red One stopped. Meaning there is no current discount for Red One owners to get any of the upgrade paths that have been made available.

So basically if you are cross upgrading from Scarlet-X to Epic-X with the Mysterium-X sensor it's almost considered a sideways move and you can still upgrade to Epic Dragon.

However, if you are upgrading from Scarlet-X or Epic to Scarlet Dragon or Epic Dragon that's the new tech upgrade path and that's where the road ends.

It's that simple and that's the deal offered.

Could you clarify what you are saying? Are you likening taking the Scarlet Dragon upgrade to RED One users keeping their R1's and not trading-in for Epic? R1 is not upgradable beyond MX, but RED have shown Scarlet is, so why couldn't it be in the future? Are you talking about special discount deals or upgrades at any cost?

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Nobody of us knows if the next sensor will fit into the current bodies. Make your camera work for you and stop thinking about something you have no control over. Nobody of us knows when the next big step is coming. And we don't even have dragon yet.

Just remember that RED is the only or at least the first one offering upgrade paths like this at all. So be happy that you get this at all!

Making a camera work for you and having the camera hold its value and usefulness are different things. You are implying its ok for a camera to be disposable as long as you get enough use out of it, but these are also valuable assets and their value over time has a pretty significant bearing on their effective cost to the owner. Yes for people who rent out their cameras and make a lot of money off their cameras, its used value may not be of great importance relative to the income it generates, but as camera life cycles and release cycles get faster and faster and technology accelerates, it is more and more important to buy smart since a camera may only be in high demand for a year or two, so having it's used or trade-in or upgrade value be high after that time can be pretty critical for an owner. And remember there are a lot of different ways of doing business out there, not all owners are rental houses, and that's ok isn't it? It may sound silly to be so interested in things we "have no control over", but that is how you gain control over it, by keeping an interest in product roadmaps and communicating with manufacturers and others in the know, even if the information is always in flux to some degree.

I am happy I get upgrade options at all, but that is partly why I bought RED. I really do appreciate RED and their great products and passion for making good cameras, but what seems to be an idea among some redusers that REDs products are a gift to its paying customers seems a little misguided. They are still a camera manufacturer that makes products that are advertised and sold to people paying them money, and I don't think it's totally crazy for some of us product owners to try to keep track of how RED is continuing to live up to its advertising and track record. I would think RED expects that of its customers, as would any manufacturer.

Hasn't obsolescence obsolete always been about the sensor upgrade paths and upgrading the critical component of a camera rather than buying a brand new body and selling/throwing out the obsolete one? Or I am misremembering or misinterpreting, but I always thought RED was quite clear about that?

I'm just trying to get information about a camera I am about to double my investment in, and sometimes that can be a bit difficult in a world (forum) where many 3rd parties state many uncertainties with such certainty. So sometimes you have to ask questions a few times even if they seem like they may have already been answered

 

[Phil Holland]

Could you clarify what you are saying?

Sure. Basically each of the "current" models of Red cameras (Epic and Scarlet with MX Sensors) allow for one upgrade path to the new Dragon technology.

Epic and Scarlet were born with Mysterium-x in their brains. The exception to this logic is the "OG" Red One which received an upgrade to Mysterium-X and also there was an opportunity for owners to upgrade to Epic.

Scarlet-X upgrading to Epic Dragon or Scarlet Dragon are each upgrades to new tech. As is upgrading from Epic to Epic Dragon. The one exception here is that current Scarlet-X owners can indeed upgrade to Epic-X and still have access to upgrading to the new Dragon tech down the line.

Now nobody knows what the future holds. However, Red has published in the Dragon FAQ that Scarlet Dragon will not be able to upgrade to Epic Dragon.

Remember there's a window of opportunity for any of these upgrade paths. Once that window is closed though, it's closed. Just like the folks who chose not to upgrade from Red One to Red Epic.

Basically all that I'm saying is based of what has been written and revealed by Red.

3 paths for Scarlet owners. Epic, Epic Dragon, or Scarlet Dragon. That's basically it. Luckily they are all win, win, win decisions.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Well spoken Noah.

You are implying its ok for a camera to be disposable as long as you get enough use out of it, but these are also valuable assets and their value over time has a pretty significant bearing on their effective cost to the owner.

Actually that's not what I was trying to imply. I'm a private owner and in the last few weeks I've always been thinking about if I should have waited longer. Mostly because of the BT Scarlet deal and a lot of "sure deal" shoots for which I got the camera have been canceled out of budgetary reasons. I have the feeling I can't sell my camera anymore because it has been devalued too much so that to me "the only" way is to upgrade. I don't rent my camera out and right now I don't have the money to upgrade. I feel exactly what you're talking about. And I also would love to know what the time frames are.

What I'm talking about is that even if RED would give out a time frame, what good would this be? If you think about all the delays and changes which have been made there's just nothing set in stone. So I feel a bit better not knowing and trying to do the best I can to not loose money through my purchases, because what would waiting help? To me there's no "true" planning ahead because too much can change. Of course I think ahead but I'm just saying this doesn't make the whole deal future proof.

Basically I believe we're on the same map. Maybe I misread some of the posts before. What always gets to me is the opinion that RED has to do this or that and if not, they are not taking care of their customers. I feel RED is taking the customer much more into account than any other manufacturer out there.

And even though Scarlet Dragon can not be upgraded to Epic Dragon, nobody said anything about future sensors, or am I mistaken? And even if, remember how much RED changed the whole Scarlet upgrade deal? Everything is subject to change. Count on it

I am happy I get upgrade options at all, but that is partly why I bought RED. I really do appreciate RED and their great products and passion for making good cameras, but what seems to be an idea among some redusers that REDs products are a gift to its paying customers seems a little misguided. They are still a camera manufacturer that makes products that are advertised and sold to people paying them money, and I don't think it's totally crazy for some of us product owners to try to keep track of how RED is continuing to live up to its advertising and track record. I would think RED expects that of its customers, as would any manufacturer.

And I agree

Hasn't obsolescence obsolete always been about the sensor upgrade paths and upgrading the critical component of a camera rather than buying a brand new body and selling/throwing out the obsolete one? Or I am misremembering or misinterpreting, but I always thought RED was quite clear about that?

And I must say - after a few seconds of digging - you are right

...
We promised that we would make "Obsolescence Obsolete". In our minds, when we released the RED ONE, we imagined that we would offer an upgrade for the RED ONE sensor as technology and innovation improved.* We will honor that promise. Along with the announcement of Scarlet and EPIC is a sensor upgrade for the RED ONE.

What we hadn't imagined back then was a way to make "Obsolescence Obsolete" a much more broad concept. With Scarlet and Epic... it means being able to upgrade EVERYTHING as technology advances. Every component, on an individual level, can be upgraded and improved. The RED ONE is a modular system that can be upgraded. Scarlet and EPIC are completely modular and upgradeable in every way.
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