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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- DSMC FAN 2.0 Upgrade Kit

Patrick Tresch said:
Phil's test has been made with RED's two new fan installed with the sound recorder set to his voice level and to what Phil estimate to be a normal shooting situation. In this condition, yes, the sound guy won't be bothered.
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Correct and I boosted the audio +9.9dB. I would say under most dialogue recording situations this is a very noticeable improvement.

Additionally, when I first got the new fans I burned several very, very long takes. Actually the longest I've ever shot on any Red camera. It's really interesting to see how the Adaptive fan mode tends to the sensor temperature. Totally well within reason.
 
Thanks for the tests and info guys.

I recently did a job with two separate sound guys. Both individually made comments about RED cameras being too loud. Great to follow this thread and look at the ways I can improve the conditions for them. I think the DSMC Fan 2.0 upgrade is going to be a must for me.
 
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I have made a difference test too. I placed a fixed microphone at a fixed distance and recorded with both front fans (old and new). The new top fans where installed on both instances. I was running adaptive at 65 degrees. If someone wants to have the WAV file, I can send it to you, and you can post it online somehow. (I don't have a youtube channel, and don't have time to set one up right now). So just send me a PM, and I´ll send you the file.

I think they're both almost equally noisy, just in different ways. The old one is more "windy/fluffy/hairdryer"-noisy, and the new one is more "whiney"-noisy. I think I prefer the new one though, but not worth the price in my oppinion.

The microphone was about 20 cm. away, facing straight at the front bottom fan. So the sounds are pretty loud in this recording. And you could also argue, that the whine disappears faster with range, than the low hum of the old fan. Or it could be the other way around.

EDIT:
I´m using the Viewfactor top plate. Maybe that has some influence on how the top fans get rid of heat. Just to let you know.
 
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Thomas - very interesting. The new fans 'sound' more efficient in that they don't have the sound of the old blades cutting through the air. There does appear to be a new high pithched sound coming from the camera when the new fan is spinning - almost like electrical interference / or a circuit struggling with an inductive load.

Does this sound change when you are powered from a battery vs mains?

I would be interested in Reds view on this higher frequency whine - to understand the cause, and to understand if it can be remediated.

AJ
 
I must admit, that one of the rubber absorbers came loose, when I changed fans back and forth. It is still seated in the right place, just not "punched into place". But the fan had the same whiny noise, the first time I installed it, when the rubber knob was ok. So that shouldn't be a problem. It's well seated right now, at the right place, and squeezed nice and tight, just not punched into place. (If you look at the installation instructions, it's one of the corner absorbers. The little rubber knob broke off).
 
Anthony, what you are saying about the blades cutting through the air, is exactly how it sounds like, much more quiet and effective. It's just this whiney noise, that ruins it. If that whine could be removed, it would be great, but it's probably not possible. They must have heard/known about that whine, and been unable to remove it.

I've tried powering with mains (Europe 50hz), but get the same whine.
 
I don't have that whine that you have Thomas. I would contact your Bomb Squad Rep and inform them about what you're experiencing to see how to proceed.
 
Could anyone who's already working in adaptive mode please clarify,
if the fan speed can be kept equal between stand-by and record mode?

Or are the fans systematically jump to a higher speed when you stop recording?

That was why I always went with the manual setting until now,
but it seems that adaptive is the way to go now...

Thanks
 
There are specific setting also for controlling what happens between takes. You can even set delays to when the hyper fan kicks in after you stop recording.


Sebastian Winkels said:
Could anyone who's already working in adaptive mode please clarify,
if the fan speed can be kept equal between stand-by and record mode?

Or are the fans systematically jump to a higher speed when you stop recording?

That was why I always went with the manual setting until now,
but it seems that adaptive is the way to go now...

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Sebastian Winkels said:
Could anyone who's already working in adaptive mode please clarify,
if the fan speed can be kept equal between stand-by and record mode?
Click to expand...

In the MP3 file I posted, which is 8.5 minutes long you can get a feel for exactly how it works.

Adaptive basically functions like this:
- During camera boot, fans come on with a bit of power until sensor temperature is read by the brain then regulated to the Adaptive settings.
- Once within temperature range the fans "normalize" and keeps the temperature within your preference. I use 70°C with Adaptive.
- During recording, especially during longer takes, the sensor heats up and the new Adaptive algorithm slowly increases the fan speed to move more air thus regulating the temperature.
- Over the course of shooting and idle time the fans will slowly dip up and down in speed to keep the temperature within specified settings.

I've been in room temperature, hot desert temp, and somewhat chilly situations now with the new fans. My audio sample was made in I'd say a somewhat warm room, but I'd say between 70-85° Fahrenheit the camera is about that loud and a bit quieter with the settings I use. If it's a 90-100°F + the fans will obviously be doing more work and will be louder. If it's colder out the camera is just pretty quiet overall.

I literally don't use any other fan settings now that Adaptive and the new fans are here. I don't see much of a reason not to, unless there's a reason to use Quiet Record Mode if I'm rolling audio on macro shot of a hamster breathing :)
 
Haven't noticed that the sensor heats up during recording. But I haven't rolled that long takes yet. Does the fan speed increase just a bit? Or much?
 
Thomas Koba said:
Haven't noticed that the sensor heats up during recording. But I haven't rolled that long takes yet. Does the fan speed increase just a bit? Or much?
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I would describe it as just a bit. It's sort of a stepped escalation over time. I burned several long 40+ minute takes to test it out.
 
I guess to add to this discussion, most probably know this though, the primary importance of this cooling is to keep the sensor and other components from damaging themselves and also keeping your black calibration within spec during a shoot to maintain consistent and high quality results.

Which is why it's important to black shade when you're camera is up to temp.
 
Thomas,

Listening to your recording more carefully - I hear:

1) Air sound - low level
2) High pitch whine - that increases in frequency as fan speeds up - low 'Q' power supply like sound
3) Mid-level hum - that seems to be a subharmonic of (2).

As Phil's fan (and I believe others) do not have (2) or (3), I am Guessing that:
i) One of the power supply boards in your camera is a different revision (perhaps older) to Phil's .
ii) (compete guess) The centre frequency of (2) is the Fan_Rpm x Number_Fan_coils / 2

If this theory (i) is correct - putting your fan in a whineless body ... would also Not cause that body to whine.

(Sorry - too much wine - my head is spinning ;)

AJ
 
All new bottom fan (I've heard so far) have this wine. Just in Phil's test it's not present as it's not made to actually hear the fan but hear a voice in a "normal shooting condition".

I must say that Thomas' test is the best test you can do between both fans (orignal and new one). And the choice is : do you prefer a FFFFFFFF (original) sound or a IIIIIIIII (new) sound... ? I opted for the FFFFFF sound...

The key to get the bottom fan make less noise is to have the more efficient and quieter top fan possible.

Adaptive mode will help a lot. The heat increases a tiny bit during recording VS Stby in adaptive mode. As there are some more work load on the core but it's in the 2/4% more heat... so basically 1 to 2 C°.

So power source or other factors (bearing) are not the problem of the new Bottom fan, it's basically another desing and I suppose another rotor.


Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
All new bottom fan (I've heard so far) have this wine. Just in Phil's test it's not present as it's not made to actually hear the fan but hear a voice in a "normal shooting condition".
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I sincerely don't hear it and in my test I had the shotgun mic within 1 inch of both fans at some point. You can even hear me banging the camera body if you listen closely.....

Truthfully I've only seen 5 cameras with the new fans, but none exhibited anything alarming to me.

In Thomas's case I would contact his Bomb Squad Rep.
 
The bomb squad also asked me to send my new bottom fan after hearing my test. I'll do after the shoot. But I don't see why our both fans have the exact same noise.

I'll keep informed.

Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
The bomb squad also asked me to send my new bottom fan after hearing my test. I'll do after the shoot. But I don't see why our both fans have the exact same noise.
Click to expand...

I can think of a few reasons. There's many variables at play here if you take one apart.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
The bomb squad also asked me to send my new bottom fan after hearing my test. I'll do after the shoot. But I don't see why our both fans have the exact same noise.

I'll keep informed.

Pat
Click to expand...

I had a similar whine from my new bottom fan, consistent with tests from Thomas Koba, Pat Tresch and Phil Holland.
Because no one had documented it as the standard yet, I returned it to Red and they said it was defective.
A replacement new bottom fan arrived within a few days -- very quick turnaround.
But the replacement new bottom fan still has a similar whine to it.
If the microphone is not right next to the front of the bottom fan, then the whine blends fairly well to room tone, as in Phil's test.
You should expect a whine from the new bottom fan when you are close to the camera.
For me, I prefer the combo of the old bottom fan and the new top fans; this combo give you no overheating from very long takes and more of the wind sound rather than the whine.
I really appreciate everyone's input on this as it tells me what to expect from the 2.0 fans.
Thanks.
 
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