Marvel's Daredevil - Shot on Dragon

[Christoffer Glans]

These shows that mandate 4K delivery, are they actually wanting a 3840 or a 4096 master?

Yeah, I think that Netflix demand a 4K or UHD master as minimum resolution. House of Cards was done at 6K as I understand it (but that master file would show artifacts of stabilization so I think it's meant for archival while the distribution master is a downconvert 5K or 4K. But I'm just guessing.

The grain was definitely added in post. Actually, it'd be interested to find out what they used and it's settings. Often times I find that when compressed for web delivery, grain that looks perfect one the master file, ends up just looking like garbage on the exhibition screen... Daredevil's looked pretty good/film-like even when Netflix is set to "medium bandwidth" or whatever.

I have noticed quite a few shows doing the over-saturated green/flesh-tone colour scheme lately though. Not Teal/Orange, but almost just removing 50% blue and going kind of hyper-colour with yellowy-oranges & green. Definitely makes for a cleaner image, since blue is weakest channel.

@Mike Most; does Netflix accept Arri-Upped UHD as 4k? And if so, is this written anywhere or just knowledge you garnered through talking with them direct? I thought I read that they do accept it, but couldn't find it in writing anywhere.

I dunno, some scenes felt like they shot it with practicals in the night scenes pushing ISO to 1250 or 1600 and shooting at 4K for 4K delivery does not reduce noise as much as 6K. But if they did post-grain I think they really tried out a level of grain that look the best during different types of streaming qualities. In their super HD streaming the images look really great. But I would love to see it all in UHD.

I don't think they did too much in grading, it looks more like they had filters on the lights and created the balance through that. An artifact of a too heavy color graded look is that in the penumbra between dark and light areas you see a color fringe that looks awful. That's the reason I dislike when there's too much fiddling in the color suite. Mostly it looks like they used a lot of alchemy settings or midtone contrasts to dirty up the image. It feels like the good old bleach bypass effect in some scenes.

I don't think that they accept "Arri-Upped UHD" as I understand they don't want uprezzed material but native or higher. Of course they might accept it, but I think there's a reason that Netflix shoot almost everything they do on Red cameras.

 

[Mike P.]

Easiest way to tell if the grain is added or if it's digital noise, is if it's in the highlights... And grain in DD is definitely in the highlights (windows, practical light sources at night, etc.) No doubt some is added in post.

If they really pushed natural lighting (which they very well may have, as the colour palette and strength of grain would certainly help reduce the look of noise in severely underlit footage), I suspect they added the amount of grain they did in order to make the "noise" more uniform and/or to reduce the "plasticiness" of the image *after* noise reduction (if applied). That said, I seriously doubt that was the case... More likely they probably added grain of varying strengths to help match shot-to-shot.

Also was it STH or LLO? ISO1600 is very clean on LLO (at 5.5k)...

 

[michael zaletel]

Love this show.

 

[M Most]

@Mike Most; does Netflix accept Arri-Upped UHD as 4k? And if so, is this written anywhere or just knowledge you garnered through talking with them direct? I thought I read that they do accept it, but couldn't find it in writing anywhere.

This is knowledge gained in working on at least 3 shows done for them through Technicolor. Two of them are being finished as 4096 (One shot on F55 and recorded F55 RAW, which is "full" 4K, and the other shot on Red at 5K Full frame) and one is being finished as UHD (shot on Red as 5KHD). They have expressed a preference for the "full" 4K finish.

I don't usually guess at these things. If I post something here, it's because I've been involved in specific projects and meetings and know the facts.

 

[M Most]

I don't think that they accept "Arri-Upped UHD" as I understand they don't want uprezzed material but native or higher. Of course they might accept it, but I think there's a reason that Netflix shoot almost everything they do on Red cameras.

At this point in time they are demanding that origination be in a 4K format, which does not allow use of an Alexa, regardless of the recording format. That might change, but at the moment that's the way it is.

Netflix does not care what cameras productions use and does not specify Red or anything else. They just specify that it must be a 4K capable device. Netflix shows have been shot on Red, F55, and other cameras. If you think "everything" is on Red, that's probably because those are the ones people here pay attention to for obvious reasons.

As far as grain goes, that is usually done as a post process using Flame or something similar, although Baselight has a very effective real time grain simulation. The approach has been taken on a number of shows, including True Blood (the final season, shot on Alexa), Mad Men (the last 3 or 4 seasons, all shot on Alexa) and a few others that slip my mind at the moment...

 

[Nick Morrison]

This is knowledge gained in working on at least 3 shows done for them through Technicolor. Two of them are being finished as 4096 (One shot on F55 and recorded F55 RAW, which is "full" 4K, and the other shot on Red at 5K Full frame) and one is being finished as UHD (shot on Red as 5KHD). They have expressed a preference for the "full" 4K finish.

I don't usually guess at these things. If I post something here, it's because I've been involved in specific projects and meetings and know the facts.

Thanks for all the info. Always much, much appreciated.

 

[Mike P.]

As Nick said, thanks for the info Mike!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Netflix does not care what cameras productions use and does not specify Red or anything else. They just specify that it must be a 4K capable device. Netflix shows have been shot on Red, F55, and other cameras. If you think "everything" is on Red, that's probably because those are the ones people here pay attention to for obvious reasons.

As I said, almost everything they do, mainly their big hit productions. They do not care about which cameras to use, but Red, apart from the Sony F65 is probably the best camera that exist above 4K resolution.

 

[M Most]

As I said, almost everything they do, mainly their big hit productions. They do not care about which cameras to use, but Red, apart from the Sony F65 is probably the best camera that exist above 4K resolution.

I'm pointing out that the camera choices are made by the individual productions, not by Netflix.

 

[Brad Hawkins]

The grain was definitely added in post. Actually, I'd be interested to find out what they used and it's settings.

According to AC the grading was done in Resolve at Encore Hollywood, so perhaps they used a plugin such as FilmConvert (I don't know what else is out there for Resolve)? They did do a transcode to DPX, so depending on what software they used for that, they could have applied the grain in that step as well – although I think most colorists would prefer to do it during the grade...

For what it's worth, Lloyd's other recent show Fargo also had a similar grain applied and that was shot on Alexa. In the case of Fargo you can definitely tell that it's a post effect because the outtakes and extended scenes on the bluray are clean.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I'm pointing out that the camera choices are made by the individual productions, not by Netflix.

True, but again, the choice to go Red is quite demanded by Netflix due to their demand for true 4K delivery. it's either Red or the Sony F65, which is bulky in it's workflow to say the least, there aren't many really good choices for 4K delivery and I don't think that F55 would cut it for a big budget production, especially with it's LONG-GOP format.

Epic Dragon is probably the best camera around together with Sony F65, Alexa XT, Alexa 65 and Alexa mini, so there aren't that many choices if you want a true 4K delivery.

 

[M Most]

The F55 is not a "long GOP" device unless you only use XAVC. Recording RAW, it's full resolution and lightly compressed wavelet recordings, exactly like the F65. I don't know where you get the idea that it's not. The F55 is probably the second most popular 4K camera at the moment for studio level material that requires a 4K delivery - a category occupied at this point in time only by Netflix and Amazon.

Look, I know this is Reduser, but a bit of actual truth is called for from time to time in here. And the truth is that Red is not "demanded" by Netflix, either directly or by implication. It is a popular choice, but there are other choices as well. And the individual producttion gets to make those choices. And yes, there are choices beyond the ones you mentioned. Even on the projects that choose Red, there are invariably shots done on Blackmagic, GoPro, GH4, FS7, Canon 1D, and numerous other devices. That's true regardless of whether the A camera is Red, F55, Varicam 35, or anything else.

You seem very intent on somehow convincing me that I'm wrong. Except that a) I'm not and b) this is becoming something of a pointless conversation. So continue to believe whatever you want.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

The F55 is not a "long GOP" device unless you only use XAVC. Recording RAW, it's full resolution and lightly compressed wavelet recordings, exactly like the F65. I don't know where you get the idea that it's not. The F55 is probably the second most popular 4K camera at the moment for studio level material that requires a 4K delivery - a category occupied at this point in time only by Netflix and Amazon.

Look, I know this is Reduser, but a bit of actual truth is called for from time to time in here. And the truth is that Red is not "demanded" by Netflix, either directly or by implication. It is a popular choice, but there are other choices as well. And the individual producttion gets to make those choices. And yes, there are choices beyond the ones you mentioned. Even on the projects that choose Red, there are invariably shots done on Blackmagic, GoPro, GH4, FS7, Canon 1D, and numerous other devices. That's true regardless of whether the A camera is Red, F55, Varicam 35, or anything else.

You seem very intent on somehow convincing me that I'm wrong. Except that a) I'm not and b) this is becoming something of a pointless conversation. So continue to believe whatever you want.

Actually the F55 is only Long GOP in XDCAM HD (MPEG2) mode. XAVC comes in XAVC-I, XAVC-L, and XAVC-S flavors, but only XAVC-I is supported on the F5/F55, which is Intraframe only.

I just started watching this show and really like it. It certainly isn't afraid of darkness or noise/grain, maybe sometimes a bit too much but maybe my computer screen doesnt help. I do see a lot of pretty offensive looking bright yellow/red highlights that can be a bit distracting, though. I'm surprised those made it through the grade.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I need confirmation that Daredevil is shot 90% on Dragon..... There have been many speed ramp issues in post on this show and I am trying to work with one of the directors and post and VFX to determine what issues they are having.... The director says they shoot 90% on Alexa. Can anyone verify?

 

[Brad Hawkins]

I need confirmation that Daredevil is shot 90% on Dragon..... There have been many speed ramp issues in post on this show and I am trying to work with one of the directors and post and VFX to determine what issues they are having.... The director says they shoot 90% on Alexa. Can anyone verify?

If it was 90% shot on Alexa then American Cinematographer is 100% inaccurate, because it's coverage never mentions Alexa once...

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I need confirmation that Daredevil is shot 90% on Dragon..... There have been many speed ramp issues in post on this show and I am trying to work with one of the directors and post and VFX to determine what issues they are having.... The director says they shoot 90% on Alexa. Can anyone verify?

May issue of an American Cinematographer.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Why would there be a problem with any camera's over-cranked footage in terms of adding a post speed ramp? It's just a bunch of frames...

 

[Phil Holland]

Hmmm. I'd like to know what that's all about. Peter, shoot me an email. This "speed ramp issues" is news to me.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Speed changes from an edit do not carry over in Resolve (via xml or edl) if that's the issue they are having... But that's not a camera issue, any speed change is screwed in Resolve.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Speed changes from an edit do not carry over in Resolve (via xml or edl) if that's the issue they are having... But that's not a camera issue, any speed change is screwed in Resolve.

Good point. I believe Resolve does linear speed changes - but not speed ramps/curves.