Marvel's Daredevil - Shot on Dragon

[Michael Lindsay]

A Doc style format show that my biz partner shoots switched from Red Epic MX Raw to F55 Raw for an episode...the total data was just mind blowing. Costs soared, footage was lost and it was very painfull.

The reel inovation of Red is Redcode and for most of us it is the only realsitic way to shoot high resolution Raw.

I agree on all your comments Mike - go figure.

Mike - just out of curiosity - do you know any TV shows - as defined as - "narrative episodic content" that are shooting RAW on non RED cameras? (F55/ARRI) - other than GAME OF THRONES?? I'm sure there might be a "few" - just curious how many a "few" is??

Ask any DIT or on-set/near DCT (I made up that title for Dailies Creation Technician - which is really what that role should be called IMO - as it's almost always more technical than "colorist" - and most times the DIT is working with the DP on the CDL's aka "color" - so the person making dailies is typically what I would consider a technician) what RAW format is "easier" for TV and they will all tell you 6K RED vs. F55 4K or ARRIRAW.

In fact, my argument for Dragon vs Alexa for TV is ... with Dragon ... you can shoot your TV show in 6K RAW for the SAME cost as ALEXA HD ProRes - and that is fact. And it is cheaper than F55 RAW or ARRI RAW by a fair amount.

 

[M Most]

I agree on all your comments Mike - go figure.

Mike - just out of curiosity - do you know any TV shows - as defined as - "narrative episodic content" that are shooting RAW on non RED cameras? (F55/ARRI) - other than GAME OF THRONES?? I'm sure there might be a "few" - just curious how many a "few" is??

A "few" could also largely be defined as "however many shows Sony is producing at the moment." So off the top of my head, The Blacklist, Masters of Sex, Outlander, and probably Battle Creek would qualify. I believe they're all on F55 with the possible exception of Masters of Sex which might still be on F65. We just did a pilot for HBO that used Arriraw, but it was done by a director and a cameraman who are very well established feature people, so it really doesn't qualify as a "TV show." And Game of Thrones was always recorded as uncompressed HD (DPX files, recorded using Codex recorders) prior to this past season. The only sequences that were recorded Arriraw were the more involved visual effects scenes (which admittedly is a good portion of that show).

Ask any DIT or on-set/near DCT (I made up that title for Dailies Creation Technician - which is really what that role should be called IMO - as it's almost always more technical than "colorist" - and most times the DIT is working with the DP on the CDL's aka "color" - so the person making dailies is typically what I would consider a technician) what RAW format is "easier" for TV and they will all tell you 6K RED vs. F55 4K or ARRIRAW.

Ah, but DITs don't really deal with the post path, or the visual effects turnovers, or just about anything else that happens after the material leaves the set. There's more to all of this than just copying files, getting an Avid file made, and Pix files posted. The Achilles heel for Red has always been simultaneously its biggest strength, and that is its use of fairly aggressive wavelet compression. It's the biggest strength because it allows for some flexibility in terms of being able to view the files, albeit at a severely reduced quality, and because it allows very reasonable file sizes for rather large format images. But it's also its Achilles heel because processing it efficiently requires either dedicated hardware or a lot more time than other formats. The dedicated hardware is rather pricey considering it only supports one camera (and on essentially every show we do, there's ALWAYS more than one camera type....) and takes up a valuable slot in the processing computer. And the "flexibility" afforded by the myriad of processing options in the SDK often leads to incorrectly processed material, especially when doing things like visual effects pulls, if the pipeline isn't very tightly controlled and managed. Arriraw and F55 RAW, on the other hand, process very efficiently on commodity hardware (although admittedly they require much faster drive throughput) and have far fewer critical debayer settings. My feeling is that DIT's see Red as "easier" because many of them got into the industry on the back of Red in the first place, and are used to what's required (i.e., Rocket cards, RedcineX, and the like), willing to purchase those things, and willing and eager to deal with the rather rapid pace of firmware updates - a number of which often either break or change any established processing paths, and are often slipped into the camera without any notice to those who have to deal with the resulting files. But as I said, their job basically ends when the shooting day ends, and that's not the case for everyone else along the post chain.

In fact, my argument for Dragon vs Alexa for TV is ... with Dragon ... you can shoot your TV show in 6K RAW for the SAME cost as ALEXA HD ProRes - and that is fact. And it is cheaper than F55 RAW or ARRI RAW by a fair amount.

But you're also far too experienced at this to think that the cost of the camera or dailies processing is the major issue in studio level production (not that they don't try to cut us down to the bone...).

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

But you're also far too experienced at this to think that the cost of the camera or dailies processing is the major issue in studio level production (not that they don't try to cut us down to the bone...).

Yup ... the "major issue" in studio level production is FEAR of getting fired. Which is also know as - "why try a better way - when we can just do what 'so and so' did on XYZ"


“No one ever got fired for buying IBM.” This phrase is often called the most powerful marketing phrase ever created. In the 1980s, if you had to decide what computer hardware to buy for your company, these words rang through your head. It made your buying decision pretty easy. And, if you were a competitor to IBM, that same sentence made your job nearly impossible. Your product could be superior in every way – features, price, warranty, etc – and you still couldn’t beat IBM. What is it about the idea that ‘no one ever got fired for buying IBM’ that made it so powerful? Is there a lesson there that can be applied to anyone doing sales messaging? The science of neuromarketing provides answers to these questions. - See more at: http://corporatevisions.com/blog/20...ot-fired-for-buying-ibm/#sthash.IekFxKN6.dpuf

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

And the "flexibility" afforded by the myriad of processing options in the SDK often leads to incorrectly processed material, especially when doing things like visual effects pulls, if the pipeline isn't very tightly controlled and managed.

The "flexibility" is NOT what "often leads to incorrectly processed material".

That is like saying the flexibility of a steering wheel leads to car accidents.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The "flexibility" is NOT what "often leads to incorrectly processed material".

That is like saying the flexibility of a steering wheel leads to car accidents.

I think he means the number of variables - debayer settings, gamma, color. Even one mistake there could be critical.

My clients are all smart broadast folk, and I cant tell you how many times engineers have called ME with questions. They just dont want to make a mistake...

Ive never used F55 Raw, but my assumption is the encoding to log quicktime is perhaps a bit more streamlined.

That said, all the "options" RED gives you is also a boon when you know how to harness it.

Toia once said it best - RED is like a finely tuned race car. Know how to drive it, and you'll win races. Make a mistake...and it can be painful.

Though Ive actually found shooting RED RAW has saved us so many times (mixed color temp fixes in post? Totally doable). As long as its well exposed, RED has generally saved so many problems, the benefitis far outweigh the investmemt in workflow/philosophy one needs to embrace...to fully harness it.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I think he means the number of variables - debayer settings, gamma, color. Even one mistake there could be critical.

The number of variables are there because they CAN be - and because some people NEED those variables.

I'd love to know how anyone finds F55 RAW - or F55 ANYTHING - (let's talk legal/extended on F55) - is more "streamlined" than RED?

 

[M Most]

I think he means the number of variables - debayer settings, gamma, color. Even one mistake there could be critical.

Yes, that is basically what I meant. And in many cases, the disconnect I mentioned between the needs and interests of a DIT and the needs and interest of the rest of the post process become at odds with each other, because a DIT will often set up the camera to deliver one of the Redgammas, whlle the rest of the post process (i.e., visual effects, final grading, etc.) really want to be working from a log original. And yes, you can change it after the fact, but the "normal" working pipeline on large feature and studio level television programs is DIT->dailies operator/colorist->VFX pulls->conform->final grade->format/delivery. The dailies colorist/operator usually wants to use what the DIT sets him up with, but once it gets into post, a pipeline needs to be maintained and managed so that VFX vendors are looking at and returning to editorial material that looks like the rest of the scene (i.e., the non-VFX shots from dailies). This is done so that the editorial version plays smoothly, both in the cutting room and for previews. The "normal" way of doing this today is by using CDL's along with an output LUT, but for a Red show, the success of that or any other approach relies completely on maintaining the same SDK settings every time images are pulled from the R3D files. That isn't likely to happen if the DIT is using one gamma curve and the rest of post production a different one. Using Arriraw, this is never an issue because a common pipeline is maintained and multiple interpretations are usually not an issue. Same with F55/F65. Once you get to the final grading stage, most of this is moot because the vast majority of final colorists don't really use previous settings as a starting point anyway (only as a look guide, if that). So in that environment, having the flexibility afforded by the Red approach is fine and good. But there's a lot of things that happen between the camera recording and the final grading session.

Of course, all of this grief is avoided by using an ACES pipeline. But going that route sometimes brings other issues to the table, especially for the on-set portion.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The number of variables are there because they CAN be - and because some people NEED those variables.

I'd love to know how anyone finds F55 RAW - or F55 ANYTHING - (let's talk legal/extended on F55) - is more "streamlined" than RED?

This was part of my point that went haywire before... but anyway, I think that the power of using Red is that it can both be easy and straight forward or harder and complex. If you need every fine details of data that it delivers, then you can go RAW all the way, or you can just settle for either Redgamma or Log and be sure to have shot it correctly on location (but even so you will be able to backtrack if something went off). I don't want to loose anything in my footage so I keep RAW as long as I can. I don't however have a very strong computer setup as a freelancer but I can still manage Dragon 6K without any major hickup. Of all the cameras I've worked with I find the Alexa shot in normal ProRes to be the easiest, no one could really argue with that I think. But in second place, (or first place if we're putting resolution into the equation), I feel belongs to Red. To be able to get super heavy footage and at the same time be able to do smaller faster gigs is a really strong point when speaking workflow. Almost all other cameras need to go into a complex RAW workflow as soon as they need to do something similar. It's easy to compare the physical workflow by comparing shooting r3d to shooting ProRes or MPEG-2 Long GOP, but to really compare Red with other formats it has to be done between r3d to other RAW workflows. In that game, is there any other camera really competing for that quality and physical workflow on location?
If a production has close to unlimited budget for the camera workflow, then it doesn't matter, shoot with whatever. But putting costs into the mix of fast dailies, VFX and editing workflows (including being able to reframe etc.) I have a hard time looking at other cameras for 10-hour episode workflows. Not if you're going for a 4K delivery.

 

[Joost de jonge]

Too bad they couldn't light it for shit...

Are you sarcastic? Because else you and me have a very different opinion.

Besides if you like it or not, it is consistent.

 

[Marie Turock]

Are you sarcastic? Because else you and me have a very different opinion.

Besides if you like it or not, it is consistent.

Yes, I thought the very same thing! The subjective animal inside of me loves how the overall lighting looks for the story.

 

[Joe Bigornia]

EPIC!!!! I love it

 

[Gunleik Groven]

It's not "always" better because there are often other considerations. Like how much data you're generating and have to process, archive, and restore for the conform. Like having to ensure that everyone along the post path either crops or scales exactly the same way. Like ensuring that visual effects pulls are consistent in terms of both color pipeline and sizing. I find that people here often think in terms of smaller projects with limited scope and limited collaboration, even when they're talking about projects like television series with numerous parties involved and many months of footage to contend with. It's not always about "ultimate," it's often about practical and appropriate. I would also argue that once you've gotten to 4K, discussions about things like "softness" as a consequence of capture resolution are effectively moot, especially when the material is intended for monitors and not for theatrical screens - although even in the latter case, I think you're already past that point.

i think this may need to be printed on some walls....

 

[Gene Sung]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you know for a fact if Alexa is "allowed" on a netflix show?

One of their biggest shows is shot on an Alexa: Orange is the New Black, so obviously Netflix is fine with up-rez'd 4K.

Which brings up my next question. The Episode that goes into Kingpin's childhood, "Shadows In The Glass" looked really good in the flash back / nostalgic scenes from when Kingpin was a kid. It had this very Alexa look - blue tints and stylized yellow-ish skin tones.

Were the flashbacks shot in Alexa? Or did they just treat the Dragon to look like that?

 

[Brad Hawkins]

One of their biggest shows is shot on an Alexa: Orange is the New Black, so obviously Netflix is fine with up-rez'd 4K.

Orange is the New Black is not offered in 4k though, only HD. At least for seasons 1 and 2 that has been the case.

 

[M Most]

One of their biggest shows is shot on an Alexa: Orange is the New Black, so obviously Netflix is fine with up-rez'd 4K.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean that. Orange is a legacy show and was not required to deliver in 4K. All new productions are.