Marvel's Daredevil - Shot on Dragon

[Matt Ryan]

Good point. I believe Resolve does linear speed changes - but not speed ramps/curves.

Exactly. Had to spend a lot of time coloring entire individual clips and re-conforming to the edit to bypass this issue. Resolve should really fix this issue in the near future. It's a huge pain in the ass.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Exactly. Had to spend a lot of time coloring entire individual clips and re-conforming to the edit to bypass this issue. Resolve should really fix this issue in the near future. It's a huge pain in the ass.

Yup - Jake Blackstone and I have encountered this several times grading broadcast promos (which often use LOTS of ramps).

 

[Chris Lowe]

True, but again, the choice to go Red is quite demanded by Netflix due to their demand for true 4K delivery. it's either Red or the Sony F65, which is bulky in it's workflow to say the least, there aren't many really good choices for 4K delivery and I don't think that F55 would cut it for a big budget production, especially with it's LONG-GOP format.

Epic Dragon is probably the best camera around together with Sony F65, Alexa XT, Alexa 65 and Alexa mini, so there aren't that many choices if you want a true 4K delivery.

Not entirely sure, but I believe Marco Polo was filmed on f55.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Not entirely sure, but I believe Marco Polo was filmed on f55.

Yes it is, and so is The Blacklist as is Bloodline.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Netflix 4K delivery specs are at this link:

http://newworlddistro.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spec-and-Delivery-Overview-6-0.pdf

I'm not seeing anything in the document that "demands" production in 4K. I suspect if a major heavyweight Hollywood A-lister asked to shoot on film or Alexa or whatever, they'd say, "fine, as long as it looks good and we get 4K files out of it." (The 4K delivery specs are a little alarming -- H.264 100mbps.)

Speed changes from an edit do not carry over in Resolve (via xml or edl) if that's the issue they are having... But that's not a camera issue, any speed change is screwed in Resolve.

I just did a project last week where I warned the client to avoid speed changes in the XML for a Resolve conform and... the speed changes were fine and did actually work. The only issue was that the optical flow performance of Resolve looked different than what they were used to seeing in Premiere, but it was the correct frames and the length of the shot was the same. No sync issues.

Typically, I'd prefer DPX log files (for a high end project) or ProRes 444 log files (for everything else). But this is true for all color-correction sessions. Baselight and Pablo and Lustre have their issues as well. Quite a few high-end post houses routinely do conform in Smoke or even Clipster, then use that as a source for color. Pre-conform often saves time and money, depending on your available schedule and budget.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The F55 is not a "long GOP" device unless you only use XAVC. Recording RAW, it's full resolution and lightly compressed wavelet recordings, exactly like the F65.

Which is inferior to the RAW workflow of Red, so why do it? Especially on series with thousands of hours of material. It doesn't make strategic sense to use the F55 with RAW for such productions, it might be a cheaper camera, but that doesn't matter with the budgets they have and Red still gives more resolution and in return better 4K.

Look, I know this is Reduser, but a bit of actual truth is called for from time to time in here. And the truth is that Red is not "demanded" by Netflix, either directly or by implication. It is a popular choice, but there are other choices as well. And the individual producttion gets to make those choices. And yes, there are choices beyond the ones you mentioned. Even on the projects that choose Red, there are invariably shots done on Blackmagic, GoPro, GH4, FS7, Canon 1D, and numerous other devices. That's true regardless of whether the A camera is Red, F55, Varicam 35, or anything else.

You seem very intent on somehow convincing me that I'm wrong. Except that a) I'm not and b) this is becoming something of a pointless conversation. So continue to believe whatever you want.

I didn't say Netflix per say demand Red, I said that their demand for true 4K delivery itself demands it. Because there are only a few cameras that really deliver true 4K and the other cameras you mention just covers the resolution, then there's the production workflow for a 10-episode show that need reliability, correct metadata and time codes, reliability on set etc. The BM cameras doesn't cut it with reliability, GoPro is not nearly the quality needed, the FS7 has an E-mount and RAW workflow would require extreme storage, Canon 1D is a DSLR so no -not gonna happen on a big production.

From a production standpoint and from the Netflix demand of true 4K delivery, you don't really much cameras left to talk about. There's the F65, there's the AJA Cion, the KineMAX and there's Red.
And Red delivers on both high quality 4K and at the same time an established workflow for RAW. Which is my point... there isn't a better choice for large productions at this time, so most of them demands Red. If anything, the only other camera that does it right is the AJA Cion, Alexa is still sub-UHD meaning non-true 4K delivery.

I don't get the feeling that you have been involved with large productions and their workflow requirements, but that is a huge thing to consider when choosing a camera, probably bigger than anything else.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I just did a project last week where I warned the client to avoid speed changes in the XML for a Resolve conform and... the speed changes were fine and did actually work. The only issue was that the optical flow performance of Resolve looked different than what they were used to seeing in Premiere, but it was the correct frames and the length of the shot was the same. No sync issues.

How were the speed changes carried over? Every time I get an edit from the editor, the speed changes do not come through, the clip is still playing realtime, and in and out locked, so no way to conform that route. Had to manually color entire source clips for the speed change clips and re-conform the edit that way.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Which is inferior to the RAW workflow of Red, so why do it? Especially on series with thousands of hours of material. It doesn't make strategic sense to use the F55 with RAW for such productions, it might be a cheaper camera, but that doesn't matter with the budgets they have and Red still gives more resolution and in return better 4K.



I didn't say Netflix per say demand Red, I said that their demand for true 4K delivery itself demands it. Because there are only a few cameras that really deliver true 4K and the other cameras you mention just covers the resolution, then there's the production workflow for a 10-episode show that need reliability, correct metadata and time codes, reliability on set etc. The BM cameras doesn't cut it with reliability, GoPro is not nearly the quality needed, the FS7 has an E-mount and RAW workflow would require extreme storage, Canon 1D is a DSLR so no -not gonna happen on a big production.

From a production standpoint and from the Netflix demand of true 4K delivery, you don't really much cameras left to talk about. There's the F65, there's the AJA Cion, the KineMAX and there's Red.
And Red delivers on both high quality 4K and at the same time an established workflow for RAW. Which is my point... there isn't a better choice for large productions at this time, so most of them demands Red. If anything, the only other camera that does it right is the AJA Cion, Alexa is still sub-UHD meaning non-true 4K delivery.

I don't get the feeling that you have been involved with large productions and their workflow requirements, but that is a huge thing to consider when choosing a camera, probably bigger than anything else.

http://mikemost.com/?page_id=2

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0609190/

Mike is involved and has been in some VERY large productions...

 

[M Most]

Marc, the spec you posted is 2 years old. It has been superseded by a completely rewritten spec whose primary deliverable is IMF.

 

[Paris Remillard]

I don't get the feeling that you have been involved with large productions and their workflow requirements, but that is a huge thing to consider when choosing a camera, probably bigger than anything else.

I very much don't want to get involved here, but you should maybe check out Mike's C.V....

http://mikemost.com/?page_id=2

EDIT: Oops, Matt beat me to it.

 

[M Most]

I don't get the feeling that you have been involved with large productions and their workflow requirements, but that is a huge thing to consider when choosing a camera, probably bigger than anything else.

I wasn't going to respond to your post, but I cannot let this statement go unanswered. Dealing with work flows for very large productions is what I do for a living every day as a Director of On Location Services for Technicolor in Los Angeles. I don't have to justify what I say here, but I don't like being insulted, either. We deal with everything from network level broadcast shows to the largest tent pole features week in and week out. I know very well why cameras and many other things are chosen for various types of productions and don't need to be educated by you on the subject. And I would suggest that instead of arguing with someone directly involved in the things you are guessing at, you might want to learn from the discussion.

That's it, I'm done now...

 

[Phil Holland]

I will certainly back Mike in this particular scenario. He's been in the industry for as long as I've been alive. He's right in the thick of every type of production, especially studio driven production. I would say his is one of the most valuable voices to have in our midst here on REDuser, though certainly sometimes I don't see eye to eye on a few topics with him

But I respect the experience and expertise. He certainly does know what he's talking about. And there's always something new to learn.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I wasn't going to respond to your post, but I cannot let this statement go unanswered. Dealing with work flows for very large productions is what I do for a living every day as a Director of On Location Services for Technicolor in Los Angeles. I don't have to justify what I say here, but I don't like being insulted, either. We deal with everything from network level broadcast shows to the largest tent pole features week in and week out. I know very well why cameras and many other things are chosen for various types of productions and don't need to be educated by you on the subject. And I would suggest that instead of arguing with someone directly involved in the things you are guessing at, you might want to learn from the discussion.

That's it, I'm done now...

If you feel insulted I'm sorry for that, but I don't know why you take this so personally. There's a world outside of USA and there are other viewpoint on this. I might be wrong in the specific case of Netflix but I have been involved with many productions and their workflows ever since digital cinema became a broad concept. I'm not a fan of using personal status to support an argument, because it never really contribute to the discussion other than pointing out that "you know best because you are this", if anything I should feel insulted by this attitude because I've been keeping to the point and arguments. But no, I will keep to the point...

...and my point was simply that of all the cameras on the market, the Red cameras feature both an easy workflow and a good 4K quality and that limits the choices when building a large production workflow. Of all the productions I've been involved with they always take the best option needed for their delivery. Most of the times they use Alexas because the final delivery/master is 2K. The easy workflow, the good quality images and the delivery specs speaks for Alexas more than most other cameras if your output is 2K. For 4K there are a lot more things to consider. But if you've been involved with Netflix productions that use 1Ds and GoPros as their primary cameras (we aren't talking crash cams here) then I can't argue against that... just stop making it personal please.

I respect your CV and long carrier, I can't of course know about everyone in the world and what they do. The way we do things in Sweden might be different from LA so that might be the case here. I'm just speaking from my own personal experience combined with everything I've read and learned about Netflix and their workflow.

 

[Marc Wielage]

If you feel insulted I'm sorry for that, but I don't know why you take this so personally. There's a world outside of USA and there are other viewpoint on this.

I've casually known Mike on and off for more than 25 years, and he's a very, very experienced guy who's worked on literally hundreds of TV shows and feature films. The guy knows his stuff extremely well and has worked for some very, very big LA post houses (and one in Miami). He's not somebody I would challenge lightly on issues of workflow, color science, dailies, VFX, and post finishing. It's fair to say that Mr. Most has forgotten more than many people know about these areas.

Marc, the spec you posted is 2 years old. It has been superseded by a completely rewritten spec whose primary deliverable is IMF.

Where's the new spec? I got nothin' on Google. I do have the specs from Amazon.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I didn't say Netflix per say demand Red, I said that their demand for true 4K delivery itself demands it. Because there are only a few cameras that really deliver true 4K and the other cameras you mention just covers the resolution, then there's the production workflow for a 10-episode show that need reliability, correct metadata and time codes, reliability on set etc. The BM cameras doesn't cut it with reliability, GoPro is not nearly the quality needed, the FS7 has an E-mount and RAW workflow would require extreme storage, Canon 1D is a DSLR so no -not gonna happen on a big production.

Hmmm, quick list of 4K+ cameras:

Alexa 65
Canon C500
Panasonic Varicam 35
Red Epic/Dragon/Weapon
Sony F55
Sony F65
Vision Research Flex4K

There's a lotta options out there, and more coming. I'm not convinced that, if push came to shove, a major entertainment name (say, somebody in the neighborhood of Ron Howard, Spielberg, or Scorsese) demanded to use an Alexa XT in 3.5K I can't see where Netflix would really bitch about an uprez to 4K. I honestly think they're concerned far more about content: story, character, and all the creative aspects. The K is only a very tiny part of that. And I'm not convinced the top Blackmagic 4K cameras aren't still contenders for certain kinds of projects.

 

[Phil Holland]

I can't see where Netflix would really bitch about an uprez to 4K.

This part I can jump in on. Netflix (and a few other entities) have made it clear that all future/current productions are going to be shot at 4K. There is often a list of cameras provided at the head of production to keep things "clear". Hell, I've made a couple of those lists even and shot test footage.

Not saying inserts and special shots don't happen with other cameras. But there are entities who aren't really fond of uprezzing because it's not "hitting the mark" as well as various other industry professionals.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I've casually known Mike on and off for more than 25 years, and he's a very, very experienced guy who's worked on literally hundreds of TV shows and feature films. The guy knows his stuff extremely well and has worked for some very, very big LA post houses (and one in Miami). He's not somebody I would challenge lightly on issues of workflow, color science, dailies, VFX, and post finishing. It's fair to say that Mr. Most has forgotten more than many people know about these areas.
.

I'm not really challenging anyone, I'm merely having conversation. Maybe it's a language barrier, but I'm not trying to put me in some position above his knowledge. I only spoke my mind based on what I know myself. If I stand corrected I will. I just want to know "beyond reasonable doubt" about things instead of just accepting what someone said, whoever says something. For a greater understanding there need to be discussion. Just don't understand the direction this minor thing has taken. Sorry to have offended anyone.

Hmmm, quick list of 4K+ cameras:

Alexa 65
Canon C500
Panasonic Varicam 35
Red Epic/Dragon/Weapon
Sony F55
Sony F65
Vision Research Flex4K

There's a lotta options out there, and more coming. I'm not convinced that, if push came to shove, a major entertainment name (say, somebody in the neighborhood of Ron Howard, Spielberg, or Scorsese) demanded to use an Alexa XT in 3.5K I can't see where Netflix would really bitch about an uprez to 4K. I honestly think they're concerned far more about content: story, character, and all the creative aspects. The K is only a very tiny part of that. And I'm not convinced the top Blackmagic 4K cameras aren't still contenders for certain kinds of projects.

Yes, and my point was that of all those cameras there are few that really works well for a 10-hour show. For example, I'm not sure I've seen any TV shows shot on F65. I don't think it's heavy workflow really works well for it, but please tell me if I'm wrong.
I mean that there's probably a reason why Red is the major player right now for Netflix productions, compared to all other cameras. Why? Probably because of easy workflow and delivery specs.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I want to apologize and correct my statement that perhaps Daredevil was shot on Alexa.... I was 100% mis informed by one of the show's directors who certainly should know what camera was being used told me that he was certain it was Alexa.

He called me today and corrected himself and said it was shot on Dragon......

And as far as the post speed ramp and Netflix asking for NO post speed ramps I am tracking down the issues. The show's post and VFX team has serious questions about this as ell with Netflix....

I will come back with the answers I hope soon.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I want to apologize and correct my statement that perhaps Daredevil was shot on Alexa.... I was 100% mis informed by one of the show's directors who certainly should know what camera was being used told me that he was certain it was Alexa.

He called me today and corrected himself and said it was shot on Dragon......

And as far as the post speed ramp and Netflix asking for NO post speed ramps I am tracking down the issues. The show's post and VFX team has serious questions about this as ell with Netflix....

I will come back with the answers I hope soon.

Thanks Peter!

 

[Marc Wielage]

For example, I'm not sure I've seen any TV shows shot on F65. I don't think it's heavy workflow really works well for it, but please tell me if I'm wrong. I mean that there's probably a reason why Red is the major player right now for Netflix productions, compared to all other cameras. Why? Probably because of easy workflow and delivery specs.

I know a bunch of productions that are using Sony F55's and the results look terrific. My standard thing is that beyond a certain level of quality, the camera does not matter -- it's all about the work of the DP and what happens in post.

This part I can jump in on. Netflix (and a few other entities) have made it clear that all future/current productions are going to be shot at 4K. There is often a list of cameras provided at the head of production to keep things "clear". Hell, I've made a couple of those lists even and shot test footage.

I again say that if a huge industry heavyweight pushed their way in and said, "I insist on THIS camera," Netflix will back down and take whatever they're given without question. I think their preference may be for 4K origination, but I really don't think it's the deal-breaker you guys make it out to be. And if somebody shot on an Alexa XT in 3.5K, I don't think anybody will sniff at the results. Beyond a certain limit, nobody cares and nobody can tell. (If somebody has this in writing for me to actually see, I'd love to get the link.)

I have yet to work on a network show where they haven't used different cameras with different resolutions. It might just be a grab shot here and there, but many DPs out there are in a heavy experimental mode where all kinds of weird cameras come flying in on certain days, particularly for stunts, explosions, underwater shots, and so on. I'm not happy about it, but that's the reality in 2015 right now. I would much, much rather they stick with a single brand and model of camera just for consistency. But it is what it is, and we always find a way to make it work.