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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Marvel's Daredevil - Shot on Dragon

Apologies if this has been already discussed before somewhere
http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/13/8405221/daredevil-one-shot-fight-netflix


The single take fight shot in the new Daredevil TV series at the end of episode 2 could have been done in at least 2 or 3 different ways, but none of the articles I've read have said definitively whether this was a Steadicam shot, or a Technocrane stitched shot or a ceiling track painted out in post.


Does anyone know the truth? I was initially thinking it was Technocrane or ceiling rail (lock offs too stable to be Steadicam I feel) but others I know say it was Steadicam. A Reddit thread said it was a ceiling rail shot. The stunt coordinator said it was all one take, which would rule out a Technocrane, so I'm think the ceiling rail is most likely.


If it was Steadicam, how was the fly over the broken door achieved - stepping over, or moving the door out and back?


Thanks! :smile:
 
Surprised to read in American Cinematographer this series was shot 4K on Dragon, not 5K and 6K? Apparently they shoot a lot of high speed, and wanted to keep the resolution consistent at all frame rates, but still surprised they didn't at least shoot 5K (as highest slowmo in series I believe was 96fps)....or at least stuck to 6K for 23.98 scenes, and downscaled to 5K or 4K when/if needed for high speed?

Also appears they shot SKINTONE. Wonder how series would have looked on LOWLIGHT @ 6K? Especially considering how much of series is shot at night, with dark scenes, etc...
 
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I'm enjoying the hell out of this show. Love the dark, moody, and colorful palette. Some nice performances in there too. Love those fight scenes and the well framed light. Smart stuff.
 
ericyoung said:
Does anyone know the truth? I was initially thinking it was Technocrane or ceiling rail (lock offs too stable to be Steadicam I feel) but others I know say it was Steadicam. A Reddit thread said it was a ceiling rail shot. The stunt coordinator said it was all one take, which would rule out a Technocrane, so I'm think the ceiling rail is most likely.
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I believe there were multiple takes seamlessly stitched together in VFX, because the actors' stamina wouldn't hold up for two or three continuous minutes for hours at a time. The camera crew, VFX crew, and post crew did an absolutely fantastic job on the entire series.

BTW, the sound mix on the show was phenomenal as well. No question, this is one of the most successful superhero shows anybody has done so far, and it's doubly remarkable given that this was done by Netflix -- though it's also a pretty heavy, borderline-R-rated show, very much pushing the boundaries.
 
The Epic Dragons recorded 4K raw Redcode files at 5:1 compression to onboard RedMag SSDs. Lloyd notes that 4K was chosen rather than the 6K the Epic Dragon is capable of “because we were delivering in 4K. We were also shooting a lot of high-speed [footage], and I didn’t want to be constantly switching resolutions — that can be messy for the post folks.
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not this time again! its like having a ferrari and keeping at 60 MPH max.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
not this time again! its like having a ferrari and keeping at 60 MPH max.
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Yeah, how the hell can productions this big keep making these kind of mistakes? The cinematography is great but this explains the high visible noise. Can someone please educate the people involved with this production about the benefits of downscaling? I'm always amazed when large productions do these things while some low budget indie-production does everything right... I seriously hope they read up and educate themselves in time for season 2.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Yeah, how the hell can productions this big keep making these kind of mistakes? The cinematography is great but this explains the high visible noise. Can someone please educate the people involved with this production about the benefits of downscaling? I'm always amazed when large productions do these things while some low budget indie-production does everything right... I seriously hope they read up and educate themselves in time for season 2.
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The grain is obviously a choice in post. David Fincher cropped the image of the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo @3600x1500px. Will you educate him and Jeff Cronenweth as well?
Everytime I read a comparison between a Red camera and a car I want to own an Arri.
 
sam karr said:
The grain is obviously a choice in post. David Fincher cropped the image of the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo @3600x1500px. Will you educate him and Jeff Cronenweth as well?
Everytime I read a comparison between a Red camera and a car I want to own an Arri.
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No, but I would educate you to look up exactly how they did that workflow, because I don't know where you got 3600×1500 from. They shot at full 5120×2700 with 20% headroom to enable VFX and stabilization which means a 4096×2160 final resolution. This was done with material shot on Epic MX while the rest was shot on Red One MX, even less in resolution. You can't compare a lesser resolution camera to the Dragon. As an example, on their work with Gone Girl they shot at full 6K with 17% headroom then downscaled to 5120×2133 before VFX with a 4K output after VFX. So they did indeed get the material downscaled. And even on the Epic MX shots in GWDT the shots which were stabilized might not even have used up all those safe percentages, which means the final resolution did get a downscale.

The thing here is that they shot Daredevil at native 4K which means there are no downscaling whatsoever. They didn't, from what I understand, not even use the same shooting strategy as Fincher and his team so there weren't anything cropped in camera. So I think it's even more strange that they shot 4K native. It might be an esthetic choice to go with visible noise, but it's also not recommended for streaming, which is Netflix's whole way of distribution.

I use the same technique as Finchers team when I shoot Red but I never go below 4K. I always try to be higher in resolution than the final output, which is the whole point of shooting 6K. There aren't any 6K screens so the statement that "we shoot 4K because we deliver in 4K", means to imply that they didn't choose 6K because... they didn't deliver in 6K? Which makes no sense. These aren't the first people in big productions that I've seen misunderstand the whole process of shooting higher resolution for 4K delivery.
 
sam karr said:
Sometimes you should show more modesty Christoffer. Like thinking that the grain in Daredevil is from a bad workflow is the most uninformed thing I read in this thread.

https://library.creativecow.net/kaufman_debra/The-Girl-with-the-Dragon-Tattoo/1
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I was just reflecting the way you approached what I wrote, so modesty goes both ways.

But you miss my point and it's more about debayering and downscaling resolution than noise. You compare a shoot done on Red One with 2K delivery as it's main strategic point. Yes, you are right about those numbers, I thought we were talking about the Epic MX, but the Red One is 4K native so you can't even put that into the mix when talking about Red Dragon used on Daredevil. Red One had a point of shooting for 2K delivery. The Epic was a step to get a downscaled images from 5K to 4K which Dragon improved upon with 6K imagery. You should look at Gone Girl which used the same camera as Daredevil.
And the Dragon is aimed for 4K delivery by shooting 6K. It's the whole point and being able to now do both downscaling and at the same time use headroom for VFX is one of the strongest purposes of why you should be shooting Dragon.

So, it still doesn't make sense that they use Dragon at 4K instead of 6K. Maybe you should compare to shoots that use the same camera, like Gone Girl. Do you think Fincher or Cronenweth would have shot 5K or 4.5K if they had 6K back when doing GWDT?
This also list other numbers than the article you linked to. Probably the Epic-X numbers.
http://postperspective.com/gone-girl-light-iron-david-finchers-path-6k/
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I was just reflecting the way you approached what I wrote, so modesty goes both ways.

But you miss my point and it's more about debayering and downscaling resolution than noise. You compare a shoot done on Red One with 2K delivery as it's main strategic point. Yes, you are right about those numbers, I thought we were talking about the Epic MX, but the Red One is 4K native so you can't even put that into the mix when talking about Red Dragon used on Daredevil. Red One had a point of shooting for 2K delivery. The Epic was a step to get a downscaled images from 5K to 4K which Dragon improved upon with 6K imagery. You should look at Gone Girl which used the same camera as Daredevil.
And the Dragon is aimed for 4K delivery by shooting 6K. It's the whole point and being able to now do both downscaling and at the same time use headroom for VFX is one of the strongest purposes of why you should be shooting Dragon.

So, it still doesn't make sense that they use Dragon at 4K instead of 6K. Maybe you should compare to shoots that use the same camera, like Gone Girl. Do you think Fincher or Cronenweth would have shot 5K or 4.5K if they had 6K back when doing GWDT?
This also list other numbers than the article you linked to.
http://postperspective.com/gone-girl-light-iron-david-finchers-path-6k/
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Well, that's Fincher's method, and yours. But before all these Ks people were thinking about the framing. They were not "shooting" again in post. I guess many people still like that old fashion way of filming.
And I can understand they prefer the look of 4K. People are having fun with the Alexa resolution here, but that soft look is one of the reasons people choose Arri over Red. Not everybody is into that ultra sharp look. Like not everybody likes Peter Jackson 48fps. You should accept different tastes from yours.
 
sam karr said:
Well, that's Fincher's method, and yours. But before all these Ks people were thinking about the framing. They were not "shooting" again in post. I guess many people still like that old fashion way of filming.
And I can understand they prefer the look of 4K. People are having fun with the Alexa resolution here, but that soft look is one of the reasons people choose Arri over Red. Not everybody is into that ultra sharp look. Like not everybody likes Peter Jackson 48fps. You should accept different tastes from yours.
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Downscaling from 6K to 4K isn't all about sharpness, it's about color depth and getting the smoothest image possible without aliasing while retaining the resolution you need.. If you want a more soft look, then use a softer lens or add some post softness. You can't get sharpness back if you didn't get have it in the first place. But downscaling as said is about more than sharpness. This is why people should read up about the reasons to shoot 6K for 4K delivery. How a bayer sensor works and why it's always better to do that instead of shooting at native delivery resolution.

It's also a very strange thing, that you want to do a 4K delivery and at the same time want a soft look. Get a softer lens instead, that way you retain all those cinematic smooth qualities of that lens without getting a sensor softness with the risk of lesser color handling.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
This is why people should read up about the reasons to shoot 6K for 4K delivery. How a bayer sensor works and why it's always better to do that instead of shooting at native delivery resolution.
.
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It's not "always" better because there are often other considerations. Like how much data you're generating and have to process, archive, and restore for the conform. Like having to ensure that everyone along the post path either crops or scales exactly the same way. Like ensuring that visual effects pulls are consistent in terms of both color pipeline and sizing. I find that people here often think in terms of smaller projects with limited scope and limited collaboration, even when they're talking about projects like television series with numerous parties involved and many months of footage to contend with. It's not always about "ultimate," it's often about practical and appropriate. I would also argue that once you've gotten to 4K, discussions about things like "softness" as a consequence of capture resolution are effectively moot, especially when the material is intended for monitors and not for theatrical screens - although even in the latter case, I think you're already past that point.
 
The grain was definitely added in post. Actually, I'd be interested to find out what they used and it's settings. Often times I find that when compressed for web delivery, grain that looks perfect one the master file, ends up just looking like garbage on the exhibition screen... Daredevil's looked pretty good/film-like even when Netflix is set to "medium bandwidth" or whatever.

I have noticed quite a few shows doing the over-saturated green/flesh-tone colour scheme lately though. Not Teal/Orange, but almost just removing 50% blue and going kind of hyper-colour with yellowy-oranges & green. Definitely makes for a cleaner image, since blue is weakest channel.

@Mike Most; does Netflix accept Arri-Upped UHD as 4k? And if so, is this written anywhere or just knowledge you garnered through talking with them direct? I thought I read that they do accept it, but couldn't find it in writing anywhere.
 
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