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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Let's talk ergonomics...

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Jannard said:
A lot has changed since NAB... where, it is true, we asked for feedback. The competitive landscape has changed significantly. I really shouldn't have mentioned our problems in China, but you need to know the truth before you get the wrong idea why so much "radio silence" and misdirection of renders. Your assumptions about what is being done by our future competitors may or may not be accurate. We have heard different info than your assumptions.
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Then that's cool with me. Thanks for coming around and letting us know, even if it took me being a jerk to get the answer. Re: China, obviously my assumptions are just that. You guys ultimately hold all the information.

I hope you see why we were getting a little restless in here. I'm glad to know the feedback from this thread [and others] has landed. Looking forward to IBC.
 
Brook... sorry if I seem abrasive. We have a lot going on and this news has hit us pretty hard. We addressed the issue you brought up in this post a few months ago internally. I have not been monitoring this Epic forum or I would have said so earlier. I'm a bit edgy that we have to now be careful what we post and what we say. It is not what I had ever hoped for or thought would happen. I guess it points to a measure of success. Some say flattery. I just think it sucks and it has put me in a very bad mood. Not your fault.

Jim
 
I would not pay too much attention to it Jim. How many "copies" have been made of the iPods and iPhones? None of them lasted long and I don't think they impacted Apple in any negative way...

You keep delivering Porsches at Toyota prices and nobody will even think about buying "fake" RED's...

Just my two pesos... :)

Ask Jarred for some of that chocolate - that should make You feel better...

PS: And while You at it - ask him to check his PM & e-mail from me - I have a small cookie to cheer You guys up... :)

Also - check this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17176
 
Andrew Benz said:
I have a strong feeling that since Red has proven to be less than vaporware, that we have lost that connection to openly contribute to a "camera in progress". Whether they are listening or not. We need the feedback as much as Red.

This would be a great excuse to create a private section for contributing Red Owners and contributing Non Owners to offer serious "from the field" feedback to get us all a much better camera system. I do not see any reason why this cannot happen for all of us with some fore thought.

Be well,

Andrew
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Jannard said:
...I'm a bit edgy that we have to now be careful what we post and what we say. It is not what I had ever hoped for or thought would happen. I guess it points to a measure of success. Some say flattery. I just think it sucks and it has put me in a very bad mood. Not your fault.

Jim
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Would a private "Red Channel" of Red vetted Active Owners and Non Owners help us all to continue this mutually beneficial relationship of information gathering and receiving? Obviously even there you would have to be careful with what you reveal to us... But, I just think it would be a horrible shame to lose that connection during some stages of product development when you guys need the passion from us as well. Too me this is the fuel that drives both sides of this equation.

For most of us, it was also our first opportunity to seriously contribute suggestions to an amazing new camera system for a bold new company that not only asked the question "What if..." but then did something crazy and would actually listen. We cannot lose this...

I respectfully and strongly think that all of us have one another's best interests in mind.

Thank you,

Andrew
 
quoting myself...

quoting myself...

mlochm said:
I am very interested in seeing what this camera will have to justify the additional $22,500. Obviously the bigger connectors, lunch box body, and new sensor won't be the end all be all... Otherwise the Mysterium X's upgrade path for the RED ONE will be $22,000!!!
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and I meant it. :greedy:

IBC and beyond. I know how much all this must piss you off Jim, you don't seem like the kinda guy who ENJOYS keeping secrets-
(you do however seem like the kinda guy who WILL keep a secret when it needs to be kept, and we have to respect that. You are after-all building a camera we will be INVESTING in- and who wants an unprotected investment? Isn't that partly why RED was created? Because with Sony, Panasonic, and the rest, our investments actually needed to be protected FROM the jerks who were building them...
Thanks to Jim and the gang, (planned) Obsolescence is Obsolete- (soon teehee!)

Brook you're a valued dude- I am glad you aren't a little punk bitch, and I respect your intensity. It is always good to stand up for what you believe in.

OK- back to waiting for the technological singularity...
 
Jim,

Thanks for chiming in here and being upfront with us. I realize you are in a very difficult position.

This is a sign of the times. RED is growing up, and the luxury of very open development afforded to an "unproven" company with a "vaporware" product that was a "scam" are long behind us. :)

I've been through this before when working for another Broadcast Tech company, and it's just part of what comes with success.

I don't believe that this means RED's unique company/customer relationship needs to dramatically change, but it is understandable that in certain situations, it must be understood when RED needs to play it's cards a bit closer to the vest.

Again, thanks for your explanation. I'm sorry to hear about issues you are dealing with. That is always a bummer.

But it's good to know you are still listening and highly valuing feedback within the development cycle.

Looking forward to SCARLET and EPIC and REDRAY.
 
I think everyone should take a few steps back... This is a chance to think outside the box. Redesign based upon other camera models is following. We have a chance here to start from the ground up. Really, there are much better options with the concept of modularity kept in place. Agree the COG should be low as possible. Disagree that shoulder mount should be included in initial design. There doesn't have to be a sacrifice between handheld/ underwater/eng. It just needs design consideration. I have actually a solution here that i am working on that is third party, and the solution also adds many many more benefits, So i know for one it is possible. And if i don't finish it someone else will. Please believe me that the modularity aspect is the best way to go. All we need is the centre of gravity to be low as possible. Red is on the right path. Any force towards standardization will take away from the usability of the cam as a more versatile unit. Versatility should be your number one object because it will help tell stories better and get the most out of your equipment. Just think:
-light weight motion control
-Light weight steadicam
-underwater
-handheld control like you have never had
-remote control helicopters
- Easier car mounting.
-Skydiving helmets

Some of you think Jim is an accidental genius. But remember redone has not even started to live up to its potential yet. I say, take one step back and rethink everything over again because tradition is ok if you are working in the parameters of what was available in technological restraints available but for those of you not aware the last 20 or so years has seen some quantum leaps in the area of technology not the least , manufacturing. Do you not think if the talking pictures was invented now that the designs would be totally different?

The object is to tell a story from a perspective. Yes, the audience is use to a certain meme'ic aesthetic, however those interested in the art of communication would be well to consider the quantum leap available at this point in time. A rethink of how we show POV and subjective experience is a human condition that works best when emulated as close to reality as possible, That is why we get the steadicam work in the shining or the excellent hand held POV work in (carpenters?) halloween taking us to new levels of experience as viewers.

What we have available here, as fat boy slim would put it is; Right here Right Now. Thats an interesting place to be in when making decisions. Surely it would be well worth going over all the available elements before jumping on bandwagons. I mean really thinking about it deeply because the design phase is hard to stop once it starts rolling...

I have watched over two years Jim get constant... I don't know what to call them... not attacks but blockages maybe is the best way to put it, yet 90%+ of his decisions have been spot on. This website has made itself open to criticism and because that has been honorably taken, sometimes it seems that this is a weakness. But nothing could be further from the truth. I see a lot of you guys talking from the perspective of your daily lives, your jobs etc... that's where you are seeing things from but just remember Jim is seeing things from another perspective and he hasn't let you down in the past. Up until now everything has been implementing a system from the ground up and we are just starting to see the benefits of that design process. Take a step back and look at everything we have as a system at this point in time... If it wasn't for the modularity aspect we wouldn't have ET, birger, etc... How many of you have benefited by it? I would bet every single person.
I think energy used best at this point in time is on dreaming...
 
Jim, as a manufacturing veteran, I'm sure this isn't the first time someone knocked-off one of your products. Although it's not fun when you get confirmation that it's going on, you must look at the larger picture. In fact, from where you now sit, this has to be visible only in your rear-view mirror. Surely you had to know that one of the first two or three hundred cameras was gonna get a one-way ticket "far east" to an early grave.

The threat of counterfeit Red's is practically zero, because you have perhaps the best educated customer-base of any manufacturer outside of defense contractors. No one in their right mind would be dumb enough to buy a non-sanctioned Red camera. So these knock-offs will be sold in otherwise closed markets or the third world.

Ironically, you yourself undermined this effort when you set the price so low on the real McCoy. Your pricing is so ridiculously low that ONLY a Chinese government (subsidized) factory could compete against you. In fact, I bet with a little snooping you could ferret out such a factory inside a few weeks. Whereas you have a distributed network of suppliers, your Red knock-off factory will probably keep all the required manufacturing processes in-house to avoid scrutiny. So board production, imager manufacturing, housing, integration and final assembly all happen behind the same walls. Since transportation is now at a premium ( 10 years ago you could stick a container on the water for $3000, now it costs $8000) the factory will probably be within two hours drive from either Shanghai or Hong Kong. Why? Because it would be of little use competing against Red if you couldn't do much, much better on price. Controlling transportation costs could put them in the ballgame.

Finally I come to the crux of the arguement. Many years ago, while studying at the Prado, I noted the number of young artists copying the old master paintings. My Art History professor said it was the best way to grasp the techniques of the Renaissance masters. My painting professor however, had nothing but contempt for the process, he regarded the copying of old master paintings a fool's errand. His argument against the practice was in essence this: Great works of art are created not by people who only copy the solution to a great problem, great works of art are born out of a process of solving great problems. The masters solved great problems, tackled them head-on, sometimes discovering even more great problems as they worked. The resulting painting could take months of evolution and trial and error before a "Raft of Medusa" or a "Mona Lisa" appeared on the canvas. The greatness of the painting lay not in what you see before you on the museum wall, it lay in the hard, difficult, sometimes unsuccessful journey from blank canvas to final image. What does it profit someone to copy the solution when you are blindly ignorant to the problem? In a week or two, you could have a Reubens on your wall, but it will never have the value of the original, and the artist who copied the master will never be able to tell you why.

So, even if you have a mole in your factory, feeding information to the knock-off guys in China, the best information they will have is the solution to the great puzzle you wrestle with every day. You are so far ahead of them and moving so quickly, it really won't make a dent in what you're doing because they might know when you made a change to the specs or the design, but they will never know why. They will never know the problems, the roadblocks, they will only see the solution, and how competitive can you be in the end, if all you can do is follow?

I've saved the best reason for last: what good does making a crapload of bogus Red bodies, when there won't be enough quality glass on the market to shoot anything with them? So China, pretty please, with sugar on top, start knocking off Zeiss Ultra Primes as hard and as fast as you can! That would be leadership!
 
The more I work with RED ONE the more ergonomics climbs higher up the list.
Now with Build 16 being pretty stable (have yet to break it) I'd say ergonomics is the most important thing.
 
RED-ONE ergonomics

RED-ONE ergonomics

The more I work with RED ONE the more ergonomics climbs higher up the list.

Now with Build 16 being pretty stable (have yet to break it) I'd say ergonomics is the most important thing.
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Given the RED-ONE design can't support a shoulder cut out - there are electronics in there that would fall out :red_bandana: what aspects of RED-ONE usage do you find the most challenging?

[Guys, if you're going to reply to this post... please make a new thread in the RED ONE forum to do so. I want to keep this Epic thread on topic. ~Brook]
 
anything handheld or off a tripod is problematic and uncomfortable with RED ONE. The modular design is bitty and I'm still searching to find the best setup for the giving situation.
I think the RED body shape and how you plug in cables is a awkward design.
 
Wow...what a discussion. A lot of what Brook posted is valid, and its interesting that Red's popularity has finally broken into the world market and is now being used to push new products from other competitors (which we all knew would happen).
 
Everything Brook posted is valid... but everything we mentioned was addressed internally a few months ago. We are not likely to post anymore real renders until we get the go-ahead from our international patent attorneys. Sorry it has come to this. We didn't vote for it.

Jim
 
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