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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Let's talk ergonomics...

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Stick it! :-)
 
as long as you guys keep offering suggestions, we will keep listening to them.

this might sound like another one of those bull shit responses... but its very true.
 
Glad we got a response finally, even if it is a little thin.

I just fear that these posts will be the last we'll hear until it's too late. A new rendering will pop up in a few months with a handful of these suggestions heeded. We'll be happy that we got something out of it, but there will be a few things wrong and more work will need to happen. Unfortunately... it'll be too late. The design will lock down shortly thereafter and our panicked last-minute recommendations won't make it into the body design.

That would be a huge bummer.

So why not a rendering? Why not some feedback? Why not a dialog? Tell us what can be done, what can't be done and why. Talk about the logic behind the current body design so that we can understand what's going on.

This subforum isn't full of posters who will shower panicked thanks over every post that somebody in RED makes. We prefer millimeters over pop cans. :) Like you guys, this is our second trip down this road. We're all friends here... let's cut the crap and get some real feedback. :)
 
Brook, Brook, Brook... 1st off, you have no idea what we are doing. We give out very little info while we are developing. We do listen. But it sounds like you need an instant response to every one of your suggestions. Sorry. We just don't have the time to do that for you and everyone else that has an idea.

We have listened to the "ergo-fear" of our Scarlet users. They are afraid that the camera can't be handheld easily. We know it can because we have all the pieces. The screaming of "ergonomics" finally got to me and I posted one of the accessory handles for Scarlet. All of a sudden, our customers see that we really have been paying attention and just might actually know what we are doing. Your suggestions are always welcome. So are suggestions from everyone else. But please don't ask us to comment and debate on each suggestion. Your presentation is the problem here. Sorry. We still like you and will listen to all you say. But try to temper your presentation a bit. It doesn't help your cause.

Jim

9_scarlethandle1.jpg
 
Brook... I'll give you one other hint. Your premise is suspect. Lining up the lens mounts as the basis for comparison is flawed. What matters is balance, control location and viewing position. BTW... no one has seen what production Epic will actually look like. Just so you know.

And the above render of the Scarlet handle is purposely different than what will be produced.

Jim
 
Hi Jim,

I have to apologize that I'm not going to fawn over the pretty picture of the scarlet that you are not going to produce, not even sure what the point of posting that here is ?

The issue here is the ergonomics of the Epic, what you showed at NAB managed to be worse ( yes that's in my opinion ) than the already mediocre ergonomics of the Red One ( yup. also my opinion ). As excited as I am about both cameras in general it did not inspire confidence in Red's understanding of working camera peoples needs.

I'm glad you are listening to the suggestions on this post, I think Brooks ideas are correct for what the design of the Epic should be.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
Jim, of course I don't have a clue what you guys are working on... for exactly the reasons you describe. You guys are very tight-lipped about your development and I respect that.

The thing is, it's very difficult to know which feedback hits home. It's also very difficult to know what kind of feedback hits home.

I tried to word my original post in the most constructive terms possible. I dug into the problems of the cameras' designs, yes, but I never did so in a kicking, screaming or disrespectful manner. While it's been roughly a month since I posted this thread, it's been just under 3 months since the feedback first landed in RED's hands.

That said - in the same period of time - the kicking and screaming of Scarlet users has resulted in a complete design overhaul and a bunch of new renderings. You said it yourself - it was the screaming of "ergonomics" that led you to post one of the Scarlet accessory handles.

It was only after I [and many others...] started complaining in this thread that you guys started to post.

If I am to temper my presentation, that's fine feedback. I'm just not sure how to go about this when constructive criticism and thoughtful feedback from dozens of REDuser's finest goes unanswered, but 24 hours of complaining results in instant replies.

Don't worry, I still like you too. But if making a stink is the only way that I can really know when things hit home... I'm gonna keep making a stink on the important points. If there's another way, show me.

I'm on your guys' side... I think everybody in here is.
 
OK..This is very interesting......I do not know of ANY camera Manufacturers
that have a two way dialog with customers during development...the fact that Jim & his RED team Do listen and take suggestions is very revolutionary, and benefits everyone...if they had to debate each camera rendering with each member of this forum we would never have a camera!!!!!!!!!!!!

My two cents!!!!!!!!!!

Dave
 
Brook Willard said:
Glad we got a response finally, even if it is a little thin.

... let's cut the crap and get some real feedback. :)
Click to expand...

OK... here is your real answer. We have ignored this thread because we addressed this issue months ago. We are also under increasing pressure NOT to post what we are doing since we have confirmed evidence that our cameras are being reverse engineered in China. We are dealing with this but absolutely feel no compulsion to help anyone along with a competitive product. We are forced to walk a fine line between keeping a dialog going with our customers and "not helping" our future competitors.

Is that properly "cutting through the crap"?

Jim
 
Matt Uhry said:
Hi Jim,

I have to apologize that I'm not going to fawn over the pretty picture of the scarlet that you are not going to produce, not ever sure what the point of putting that out there is ?

The issue here is the ergonomics of the Epic, what you showed at NAB managed to be worse ( yes that's in my opinion ) than the already mediocre ergonomics of the Red One. As excited as I am about both cameras in general it did not inspire confidence in Red's understanding of working camera peoples needs.

I'm glad you are listening to the suggestions on this post, I think Brooks ideas are correct for what the design of the Epic should be.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
Click to expand...

Matt... you don't have to fawn over anything. I put the render of the Scarlet handle out to show that we have, in fact, considered the ergonomics of a handheld Scarlet. What we will produce is better.

As for Epic, what we showed at NAB was akin to the "shiny RED ONE" we showed at the 1st NAB.

Believe it or not, we are actually paying attention to everything that can be done better than our 1st effort. We have gained insight here, but most of the good ideas posted here are not new to us. For us to say "great idea!" to every post seems like a hand job. And we are not into that sort of stuff.

Jim
 
As You have mentioned Yourself Jim - the heart of the camera is the sensor. I would like to add that the "brain" is the firmware and the way the sensor's data is used. If You can keep those two things away from the "competition", You should be safe and always few steps ahead...

Hope they will not find out where You get Your sensors made... :)
 
Jannard said:
OK... here is your real answer. We have ignored this thread because we addressed this issue months ago. We are also under increasing pressure NOT to post what we are doing since we have confirmed evidence that our cameras are being reverse engineered in China.

Is that properly "cutting through the crap"?

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, you say that like it should be common knowledge to all of us. That's a bummer that people are reverse engineering your cameras - it's unfortunate to say the least.

But honestly, regardless of how little I know about whatever is going on with that... I'm guessing that most of the reverse engineering is happening from one of the thousands of RED ONE bodies that are out there, with only a sprinkle of it is coming from a solidworks rendering of an accepted camera concept. The innards of the camera are what's important to an operation like that.

Now if the original Epic body was just smoke and mirrors to prevent piracy, that is what it is. I just have a hard time understanding why the cold shoulder over here comes from preventing reverse engineering... particularly when there's tons of information and renderings on the Scarlet [which has a much larger market than Epic, I assume].

I'm not going to be made into a villain over this stuff. You guys said it at NAB - the silver bodied Epic was designed to inspire feedback. Well this is feedback at its finest.

The scary thing is that unless the Epic we saw at NAB was just to throw the pirates off your scent, that design seemed like a good idea at some point inside RED. If you guys "addressed this issue" months ago, awesome; cross it off the list. But that's a pretty big about face to make in a few weeks after NAB.

Obviously I don't know where the dollars and cents fall into place, but the fine line with the customer/company dialog was all radio silence before today. I don't need a freakin' handjob for giving you guys feedback.
 
Brook.. you would be amazed if you understood how quickly and often things change in the Design department at RED....
 
Jannard said:
We are also under increasing pressure NOT to post what we are doing since we have confirmed evidence that our cameras are being reverse engineered in China. Jim
Click to expand...

This is getting to be a major problem. I read one story in Business Week where
NEC had an entire line of busines reverse engineered and the culprits were so
bold as to out right piracy by setting up corporate offices with stationary and
with NEC's name on it. I don't remember how long it lasted, but I believe it was substantial. keep your cards close to the vest Mr. Jannard
 
Brook Willard said:
I'm not going to be made into a villain over this stuff. You guys said it at NAB - the silver bodied Epic was designed to inspire feedback. Well this is feedback at its finest.
Click to expand...

We will never look at you ( or anyone else ) like a villain for giving feedback. We welcome it with open arms. But when you write posts like you did a few posts ago... well thats a different story.
 
A lot has changed since NAB... where, it is true, we asked for feedback. The competitive landscape has changed significantly. I really shouldn't have mentioned our problems in China, but you need to know the truth before you get the wrong idea why so much "radio silence" and misdirection of renders. Your assumptions about what is being done by our future competitors may or may not be accurate. We have heard different info than your assumptions.

You are not the villain here... but neither are we. I don't like being called out repeatedly... We did go silent, but for a good reason.

Jim
 
it is entertaining and fun to see Red open their door every now and again and shower us with sonic boom news. I will never forget where I was when first heard of the Epic! It is true that Jim says that the more Red gives, the more we all want. Jim is probably wondering the day is going to come when we say: I trust what you are doing with your money. Let's face it... it is his business and no-one has the right to fuss at anyone unless your sweat is being mopped off the floor along with the sweat and tears of the RED Team
 
Jannard said:
Believe it or not, we are actually paying attention to everything that can be done better than our 1st effort. We have gained insight here, but most of the good ideas posted here are not new to us. For us to say "great idea!" to every post seems like a hand job. And we are not into that sort of stuff.

Jim
Click to expand...

Fair Enough, Not looking for "hand jobs" just a camera that does not suck hand held.

Surprise me at NAB 09, F**k anybody that is copying your work, as a Commercial/Music video DP I actually am very familiar with what that feels like to have your work ripped off.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
If we can't deliver a camera (Epic) that operates well handheld, we don't deserve to stay in business. The worst product a company should ever make is their 1st one. Our 1st camera changed an industry. But it needs to improve and every camera from here forward needs to get significantly better. We get that...

Jim
 
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