KOMODO....

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Many times I see "I don't need to have"-posts that in my opinion, just come off as pretty egocentric. People define cameras based on their own very specific type of work. Everyone would benefit from fast boot times, there's no question about it. I don't think the temperature is an issue since on DSMC2 we have clear indicators for when temperatures are nominal, and I rather frame, compose and prepare a shot while it's warming up than wasting time on it booting.

Hope I didn't come off as egocentric. Just giving my point of view - of course I too would like faster boot times. I was just pointing out that, if the power requirements are significantly reduced, boot time becomes much less of an issue for me personally.

 

[David Rasberry]

Faster boot times are certainly desirable, but it would not change my general practice of leaving the camera on during a shoot until it goes back in its case.
I’m hoping four fat BP batteries will cover 6 to 8 hours of on time.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Hope I didn't come off as egocentric. Just giving my point of view - of course I too would like faster boot times. I was just pointing out that, if the power requirements are significantly reduced, boot time becomes much less of an issue for me personally.

No no, meant more in a general term. There are many times when someone points out a good feature that would be nice to implement and then some write that they don't need it because of only their own type of work. Just added to what you wrote about having long boot times on Weapon. :smiley:

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Faster boot times are certainly desirable, but it would not change my general practice of leaving the camera on during a shoot until it goes back in its case.
I’m hoping four fat BP batteries will cover 6 to 8 hours of on time.

I'm hoping for a Canon to V-Lock adapter that enables long battery types for conditions when your camera size matters less, but still able to be stripped down for lightweight applications. Not sure if such already exists, but that would be a very good modular option.

 

[Matt stambaugh]

You could probably find a dtap for it and place the vmount plate on a rail system. But I agree

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You could probably find a dtap for it and place the vmount plate on a rail system. But I agree

Maybe a rig that enables you to use canon batteries while having a V-lock in place to create a hot-swap using the canon batteries as a source when changing V-Locks.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

No no, meant more in a general term. There are many times when someone points out a good feature that would be nice to implement and then some write that they don't need it because of only their own type of work. Just added to what you wrote about having long boot times on Weapon. :smiley:

Okay cool Christoffer.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Maybe a rig that enables you to use canon batteries while having a V-lock in place to create a hot-swap using the canon batteries as a source when changing V-Locks.

I think it would be pretty simple to run from the D-tap on your V-locks to the power input on Komodo. Then you can still use the canon batteries for hot swapping. But if it runs for hours and hours on a Canon BP, it can probably run for half a day on a large V-lock. If you only need to change batteries once or twice a day, hot swapping may not be necessary.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Nice to have little canon batteries on the camera when playing around with it... But then you need to add wireless video, FIZ, extra monitors etc. Then maybe canon batteries are not really the best option no matter how little juice the camera need. Try power a terradeck with a canon battery... So yes, dual canon to Vlock would be very handy.

 

[Eric Lange]

That's a copy pasta from my formatCompare tool comparing Komodo's sensor size with the Kodak 3-perf image plane, though uncredited *tears*.

Here you go:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?makeA=RED&modelA=Dragon-X+5K+S35&formatA=5K+FF&makeB=Kodak&modelB=Film&formatB=Super+35mm+3-Perf&focalLengths=

And yes, this is an entirely new RED sensor. So new it does new things too.

[Emphasis added lol ]

This has got me thinking ,

Global shutter … OoooKaaaayyyy

hmmm.

Shoots RAW - uncompressed (maybe ?) * (shorter bursts) ----- > Why ?

'cuz sub pixel spatial accuracy is preserved or enhanced/ further improved ~ important for advanced composites/ VFX and 3d applications / vision systems / AR / VR etc. ~ Quasi original design intent (at one time ?) .

So maybe that falls back into the short bursts / stills type application also ?

+ makes better sense for advanced time code / genlock.

[Different architecture / memory structure and chip / sensor design to accomplish that.].

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* RAW uncompressed (depending on scheme) as well as R3D / redcode

** Apologies if this has already been thrashed out.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Speaking plainly / bluntly, folks that don't have camera manufactories (of their own) are kinda dependent on whether a company that does make sensors/ cameras / blocks has some sort of interest in their own technologies -especially in terms of follow through (in one form or another).

Not really... fabs want clients, and clients with high margin products are always welcome, especially if they have the capacity. That's just simple business, but in semiconductor manufacturing it's better to have your fab capacity getting used even if it's for low margin chips because of the cost of letting all of that equipment sit idle, because they still have to maintain it... it's an expensive business. That's why AMD got out, and why Panasonic got out...

So hopefully KOMODO sensor tech has spin off / peripheral longer term (potential) applications inside the house of RED. I.e. at least being considered as a possibility rather than a total dead end (regardless)- as much as anyone on the inside has their own crystal balls well tuned etc. (as much as anyone can).

The Komodo sensor has a lot of firsts for Red (plus a few firsts for the industry, like the switchable global/rolling shutter mode), which is leading to some compromises like the lower maximum frame rates as compared to its bigger brothers, so it's only logical to expect that what the design team will apply what it learned in the process to the next generation, meaning the successors to the Monstro, Helium, and Gemini sensors.

 

[Eric Lange]

Not really... fabs want clients, and clients with high margin products are always welcome, especially if they have the capacity. That's just simple business, but in semiconductor manufacturing it's better to have your fab capacity getting used even if it's for low margin chips because of the cost of letting all of that equipment sit idle, because they still have to maintain it... it's an expensive business. That's why AMD got out, and why Panasonic got out...



The Komodo sensor has a lot of firsts for Red (plus a few firsts for the industry, like the switchable global/rolling shutter mode), which is leading to some compromises like the lower maximum frame rates as compared to its bigger brothers, so it's only logical to expect that what the design team will apply what it learned in the process to the next generation, meaning the successors to the Monstro, Helium, and Gemini sensors.

What I'm getting at AS a third party developer that can integrate systems and products for KOMODO especially for advanced 3d (based) applications... (and beyond).

Having KOMODO be both the beginning and the END of a product capability and short lived would be kind of a "Bummer". And in part a waste of time and effort + $.

As the other RED cameras don't have a global shutter.

And no one from RED has chimed in to say "Yeah we are gonna keep working on global shuttered sensors for the foreseeable future".

Remember KOMODO exists originally from Jim Jannard and Hydrogen project ?

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Is Venice not switchable from Global to regular scan and back ? Is it either or as ordered ?

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Having KOMODO be both the beginning and the END of a product capability and short lived would be kind of "Bummer". And in part a waste of time and effort + $.

In part? Try "total."

As the other RED cameras don't have a global shutter.

Well, Jarred did say that's the main reason for having the option on the Komodo...

And no one from RED has chimed in to say "Yeah we are gonna keep working on global shuttered sensors for the foreseeable future".

Given how much money Red is investing in it, why would anyone from Red have to spell that out?

Remember KOMODO exists originally from Jim Jannard and Hydrogen project ?

That's backward; the Komodo predated the Hydrogen, which became an add-on, not the other way around.

Is Venice not switchable from Global to regular scan and back ? Is it either or as ordered ?

AFAIK the Venice doesn't have a global shutter at all.

 

[Colton John McLaughlin]

What I'm getting at AS a third party developer that can integrate systems and products for KOMODO especially for advanced 3d (based) applications... (and beyond).

Having KOMODO be both the beginning and the END of a product capability and short lived would be kind of a "Bummer". And in part a waste of time and effort + $.

As the other RED cameras don't have a global shutter.

And no one from RED has chimed in to say "Yeah we are gonna keep working on global shuttered sensors for the foreseeable future".

Remember KOMODO exists originally from Jim Jannard and Hydrogen project ?

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Is Venice not switchable from Global to regular scan and back ? Is it either or as ordered ?

Komodo was alive long before HYDROGEN. Please review the entire thread, Jarred states it many times, which is why the hydrogen isn't 100% compatible with the Komodo. Otherwise the Hydrogen would have a wireless connection to Komodo, but it will use USB-C instead now.

 

[Eric Lange]

Komodo was alive long before HYDROGEN. Please review the entire thread, Jarred states it many times, which is why the hydrogen isn't 100% compatible with the Komodo. Otherwise the Hydrogen would have a wireless connection to Komodo, but it will use USB-C instead now.

Jarred also said that he inherited the project from Jim Jannard,

I'm not 100% sure that KOMODO would have existed in it's current form if it was not for Jim Jannard and HYDROGEN...

(quite in the same way).

I'm not 100% sure on the time lines and needs of both parallel projects.... And the degree to which KOMODO concept stages were coopted by Jim's needs or vice versa ?

IT IS a very versatile platform ~ That's part of it's appeal.

Key point is does RED have a vested interest in globally shuttered sensors ? [for the future ?] .

I would not bet the farm on that notion YKWIM ?

IS KOMODO a super awesome one off (or beginning of something new that other similar cameras in the future will be offered in the globally shuttered Block Utility Camera - As Phil Holland types it as.).

It certainly won't stop people buying truck loads of KOMODOS for their immediate needs and wants.

Most professional shooters should be able to get the value out of the imagery of KOMODO even if the line is discontinued 18 months from now ; given it's actual price point.

 

[Eric Lange]

In part? Try "total."



Well, Jarred did say that's the main reason for having the option on the Komodo...



Given how much money Red is investing in it, why would anyone from Red have to spell that out?



That's backward; the Komodo predated the Hydrogen, which became an add-on, not the other way around.



AFAIK the Venice doesn't have a global shutter at all.

Like a lot of tech entrepreneurs Jim Jannard is a also a very good submarine in terms of general areas he's been working on for quite a long time in some cases.

I'm not sure where one would set the time line for beginning of KOMODO at ?

I couldn't hazard a guess as to how much Jim Jannard had to spend on HYDROGEN but it has to be in the neighborhood of hundreds of millions of dollars ~ That was a lot of "Big moving parts" as he put it.

@Rakesh M that's interesting about the Venice (good catch ~ fast scan).

 

[David Rasberry]

The late change to Komodo for the Hydrogen project was adding the POGO interface to support smart phones rather than conventional camera top DSMC style monitors. New sensors like this take years to develop. It was probably in the works long before the Hydrogen project even existed.

I see no reason why Komodo would not be the first next gen Red cameras if it proves out. Every Red is an evolutionary development.

I think cinematographers have a vested interest in global shutters. Plus it potentially opens Komodo to industrial and scientific camera markets that require global shutter cameras because they need time coherent images.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Jarred also said that he inherited the project from Jim Jannard,

No, he said he inherited the Hydrogen project from Jim. The camera was already underway before that.

I'm not 100% sure that KOMODO would have existed in it's current form if it was not for Jim Jannard and HYDROGEN...

That's true, but as David pointed out the biggest change was support for a phone for monitoring and control, particularly the Hydrogen phone.

Key point is does RED have a vested interest in globally shuttered sensors ? [for the future ?] .

Red has a vested interest in developing sensors that people want, and cameras to enable them to use those sensors.

 

[Colton John McLaughlin]

Jarred also said that he inherited the project from Jim Jannard,

I'm not 100% sure that KOMODO would have existed in it's current form if it was not for Jim Jannard and HYDROGEN...

(quite in the same way).

I'm not 100% sure on the time lines and needs of both parallel projects.... And the degree to which KOMODO concept stages were coopted by Jim's needs or vice versa ?

IT IS a very versatile platform ~ That's part of it's appeal.

Key point is does RED have a vested interest in globally shuttered sensors ? [for the future ?] .

I would not bet the farm on that notion YKWIM ?

IS KOMODO a super awesome one off (or beginning of something new that other similar cameras in the future will be offered in the globally shuttered Block Utility Camera - As Phil Holland types it as.).

It certainly won't stop people buying truck loads of KOMODOS for their immediate needs and wants.

Most professional shooters should be able to get the value out of the imagery of KOMODO even if the line is discontinued 18 months from now ; given it's actual price point.

I think Komodo is the way forward for RED.

DSMC2 will live on, there will be like a 12K sensor or something crazy, or 8K Dual ISO...

Komodo will come in 6K, then eventually 8K. Maybe a Dual ISO option.

Then DSMC3 will be similar form factor to DSMC2, but maybe have some design options of Komodo (like rf mount, but this time with a locking ring)

DSMC3 will have a hybrid Gemini/Komodo sensor to start, so you get all the perks of DSMC2, but with Dual ISO, Global Shutter, and AUTOFOCUS!!!

This is all speculation but this is where I see RED going in the next 7 years....

 

[Eric Lange]

No, he said he inherited the Hydrogen project from Jim. The camera was already underway before that.



That's true, but as David pointed out the biggest change was support for a phone for monitoring and control, particularly the Hydrogen phone.




Red has a vested interest in developing sensors that people want, and cameras to enable them to use those sensors.

The HYDROGEN project encompassed other cameras as well, not just cell phones and H4V formats + LEIA RED displays.

If you go through the patent literature there were some really interesting different camera designs and really interesting alternate interconnecting lens mounts etc. And several different imager ideas / cameras floated out there for larger future HYDROGEN ecosystem.

Also around the time there were initial exploratory discussions with Terry Gou and FOXCONN as well as other needs and some other really BIG moving parts (as big as it gets).

These are shifting sands on Global scale. Even the Foxconn plant in Wisconsin has been repurpose somewhat since then.

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I think it would be super awesome IF RED continued to develop other globally sensored cameras [As that would be super helpful to our aims.] but as the RED Motto and Maxim states "Everything can and will change.". ].

Personally I don't see why RED would develop a globally shuttered camera ? (in the first place ? / per say ? ) Given various applications spaces and tradeoffs and needs for commercial broadcast and Film industry ?