KOMODO....

[Christoffer Glans]

I think in this industry its difficult to bring something to market thats a step back. So my guess is it will be on par with helium and gemini in terms of DR. If Söderberg leaves his monstros on the shelf to shoot with this thing it cant be all bad. But then again he used an iphone on his last film. Time will tell I guess.

I'm not sure how global shutters affect DR counts, but wasn't the global shutter at BlackMagic the reason it had its awful 11 stops compared to what they do now with 13 stops? So with Komodo having a global shutter, will that affect the DR down from 16-17 stops? If this is a new sensor there might be some new tech pushing the DR on a global shutter tech.

Key point is that if it has the capability of doing what is proposed, up to 40 fps 6K s35mm and at the same time keep the DR quality of current sensors from Red without pushing out more noise than the Dragon sensor, then it's probably gonna be a hit. I really hope that we don't get something that is subpar a 6K Dragon sensor.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

I'm not sure how global shutters affect DR counts but weren't the global shutter at BlackMagic the reason it had its awful 11 stops compared to what they do now with 13 stops?

I know that the Sony F55 had a global shutter and the Sony F5's rolling shutter and both are rated at 14 stops, but they are old tech at this point

might be a Grame question as to why the readout from a global shutter limits the DR... obviously Elon is getting ready for California's apocalypse with flame throwers and bulletproof cars

 

[Björn Benckert]

I'm not sure how global shutters affect DR counts, but wasn't the global shutter at BlackMagic the reason it had its awful 11 stops compared to what they do now with 13 stops? So with Komodo having a global shutter, will that affect the DR down from 16-17 stops? If this is a new sensor there might be some new tech pushing the DR on a global shutter tech.

Key point is that if it has the capability of doing what is proposed, up to 40 fps 6K s35mm and at the same time keep the DR quality of current sensors from Red without pushing out more noise than the Dragon sensor, then it's probably gonna be a hit. I really hope that we don't get something that is subpar a 6K Dragon sensor.

Dragon is 3 generations old I think it would be odd if this new sensor would not do cleaner lowlight. I have no clue what the kommodo will be. But these things are in a constant change and as dragon is, I dont know how many years old, was it 2013 it came out? I think its safe to say there is better sensor for red to choose from and there definitely is a price race on this kind of tech so yes, seams very odd if they would put something that is not atleast on par with their current lineup.

To me, If Kommodo is better per pixel than the current DSMC2 lineup would make perfect sense. Then when everybody and his brother got one, they can release DSMC3 that is even better. That, to me would be more logical than making Kommodo sub DSMC2 standard.

 

[Gregory Karydis]

I see the Komodo sensor tech as something that will be part of the DSMC3 lineup moving forward.
Obviously with 6K at the lower end and definitely more FPS for DSMC3.

So it looks like we are heading towards a much more robust DSMC3 if the features of DSMC2 brains and the Komodo sensor tech are combined.

 

[Curren Sheldon]

Yea I would think this would be of the quality of at least the Dragon-X, but more likely the Gemini (which is what I'm hoping for). The newest Red sensor (Gemini, I believe) is almost two years old, so common for companies to start matching lower end models to their higher-tier models once they have a new high-tier coming. So, if DSMC3 is around the corner, I'm sure that will be a pretty big jump in quality and usability.

Plus, Komodo stands by itself in many ways. If you have the option (and budget) of something like a DSMC2 Gemini and need it for a large production, I can't imagine you'd choose a Komodo just because the IQ is the same. There are a lot of other factors to consider. With that said, The Komodo makes for a great owner/operator camera, small productions with a small (or no) crew, or a host of B-Cams for action sequences that has the Monstro, Helium, or Gemini as the A-Cam.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

As I said before, I am not going to conform specs until I am actually holding it in my hands and it's working

That is a very refreshing approach to disseminating features of an upcoming product. I wish more companies would adopt it.

It might be a bit less exciting to not talk about the sexy/cool new features that you WISH you could include but aren't sure about yet, but will lead to a far more satisfying product release since there won't be any room for missed expectations.

 

[John Brawley]

I'm not sure how global shutters affect DR counts, but wasn't the global shutter at BlackMagic the reason it had its awful 11 stops compared to what they do now with 13 stops?

No. Two different sensors. One was the same sensor used by AJA CION, Axiom and actually quite a few others...Low ISO low DR (relatively speaking) but it was a true GS.

The higher DR sensor they use in the G2 for example is a totally different architecture. The RS is nearly the same as Alexa, which I think for many is plenty fast enough. But GS is always a great option in certain situations.

JB

 

[Christoffer Glans]

No. Two different sensors. One was the same sensor used by AJA CION, Axiom and actually quite a few others...Low ISO low DR (relatively speaking) but it was a true GS.

The higher DR sensor they use in the G2 for example is a totally different architecture. The RS is nearly the same as Alexa, which I think for many is plenty fast enough. But GS is always a great option in certain situations.

JB

Which was a point I made, that they were two different sensors and the first had 11 stops and the next rolling one had 13. The question was if global shutter has anything to do with lowering DR stops. For this I don't have the answers since I don't know if its a factor that affect DR count.

 

[David Rasberry]

Global shutter sensors in the past have had significantly higher read noise than rolling shutter sensors. The CMOSIS sensor supports both modes and loses about 1 stop in global shutter mode. But at best it was a 12 stop sensor, about the same as my Bolex.

If you start with a more up to date sensor design with 14-15 stops of DR, then losing a stop to a global shutter is not as critical.

The other issue with global shutters is a lower limit on maximum frame rates determined by the minimum dark interval time needed for frame readout.

 

[gabrielB]

Up to now yes one of the comprises with global shutters has been lower DR compared to rolling shutters. Probably one of the reason why BMD cancelled their dual global/rolling shutter mode feature on the Ursa 4.6K sensor.

Jarred mentioned earlier in this thread something about how they had figured out how to address an issue that has plagued the type of camera they were trying to build that became Komodo . (Please understand I'm paraphrasing, my words my interpretation.)
Perhaps they've figured out a way to create a high DR global sensor. Or to make the dual rolling/global actually work well.

"Modes" have been discussed, Global shutter mode implying rolling mode. If there's a rolling mode, it implies it is needed, otherwise it wouldn't be there. Why would it be needed ? Faster FPS and/or higher DR most probably.

Would be great to have a global shutter sensor with similar DR than current lineup though !

 

[gabrielB]

Looks like David and I were typing at the same time

 

[David Rasberry]

Looks like David and I were typing at the same time

My last two hobby cameras both have had global shutter CCD's. An older Canon 3CCD camcorder, and the Bolex. I really prefer the image aesthetics of a global shutter.

 

[Han Vogen]

My last two hobby cameras both have had global shutter CCD's. An older Canon 3CCD camcorder, and the Bolex. I really prefer the image aesthetics of a global shutter.

Agreed, there is something about how the image moves that looks more pleasing with global shutter.

 

[Gavin.Benjamin]

I really wish the Komodo would change the CFast2.0 slot to CFexpress.
I feel with all this other tech going to this primitive card will bottle neck the camera not to mention offload times could be some much better, maybe even get some more frame rates out of it.
Some one should start some kinda petition to change that I would pay that extra for more...

 

[Han Vogen]

I’m really happy that Komodo utilizes the RF Mount. I’ve now fully committed to RF and ordered the trinity. Will likely add the 85mm f1.2 also. Great glass.

 

[john white]

I really wish the Komodo would change the CFast2.0 slot to CFexpress.
I feel with all this other tech going to this primitive card will bottle neck the camera not to mention offload times could be some much better, maybe even get some more frame rates out of it.
Some one should start some kinda petition to change that I would pay that extra for more...

I find it so ironic that you’re looking to petition their decision to use cFast 2.0 cards for this. When it seems as though the folks at red have listened to so many outsiders complaints about their proprietary media for DSMC 1/2.... they’re met with none other than.. more complaints. I agree that CFexpress is an exciting new media format, but I’m sure Red has their reasons for going with CFast 2.0. Not to mention that it’s been endlessly stated that this camera isn’t indented to cater to High frame rate work..

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

My last two hobby cameras both have had global shutter CCD's. An older Canon 3CCD camcorder, and the Bolex. I really prefer the image aesthetics of a global shutter.

Oh you're lucky. I really like what I saw shot on the D16 and I'm kinda sad I missed my chance to get one (as news, I can obviously find one used in pretty good conditions).
It seemed that at some point they were trying to relaunch the company. Would be awesome.

I really wish the Komodo would change the CFast2.0 slot to CFexpress.
I feel with all this other tech going to this primitive card will bottle neck the camera not to mention offload times could be some much better, maybe even get some more frame rates out of it.
Some one should start some kinda petition to change that I would pay that extra for more...

The thing is : they probably started to work on Komodo way before they talked about it and CFExpress wasn't a thing back then (and even today... The only camera I know that is using it is the Canon C500MKII) and they probably can't change that.
Furthermore, Redcode at 6K 24fps and 3:1 compression ratio is about 238MB/sec, which is the same datarate if you go 40fps at 5:1 compression ratio (according to this page : https://www.red.com/recording-time). We already know that at 6K, Komodo will probable top at 40fps (we don't know compression ratios yet). It is probably NOT a media related limit, but a size, heat, sensor and all those combined other stuffs.
Cfast 2.0 can go 500MB/sec SO they already have some headroom to work with. no need to change media. It is readily available and probably owned by camera owners/rental houses (because it is used in C300MII, URSA Mini, BMPCC 4K and 6K, C700s and Alexa Mini) and its licence (of there is one, but I suppose there is) might actually be cheaper/more accessible than CFExpress (since Sony is not involved). So, again, I see no need to change media.

They are building Komodo primarly as a B or C camera for action stuff that would benefit having a Global Shutter (mode), gimbal and drone stuff and so on. As was Raven (I may have said way back in this thread that it felt like a new take on the Raven slot in the range ) and as was the Alexa Mini (the product video published by Arri at the time almost entirely focused on gimbals and drones). As Jarred already said like a million time : it is not supposed to replace a DSMC2, nor is it supposed to be a DSMC3 and they KNOW that at that kind of price point it may be used as an A-cam as well (Soderbergh...) BUT it is not what they are designing it for.
It may be frustrating that it is not your dream camera or MY dream camera (because all that being said there are a few things I would like that it won't have or do but hey that's life) BUT that's the way it is and it makes sense (at least to me) that they stay on track with what they are planning instead of adding every feature we want no matter what because in the end the price will explode and we will get a 6K Dragon-X or Gemini or whatever and would make no sense for us to make a new camera so similar to the existing line and to us to buy what already exists just with another name on it.

 

[Peter Stanley]

I really wish the Komodo would change the CFast2.0 slot to CFexpress.
I feel with all this other tech going to this primitive card will bottle neck the camera not to mention offload times could be some much better, maybe even get some more frame rates out of it.
Some one should start some kinda petition to change that I would pay that extra for more...

Cfast 2.0 is more than capable for RED Komodo. It’s well established and lots of people have them. No need for your petition....

 

[Phil Holland]

I really wish the Komodo would change the CFast2.0 slot to CFexpress.

Incoming rant-long-answer. We've all been captivated by the potential and marketing of faster CFexpress media for sure.

Let's be specific. Namely what most people would be looking for are CFexpress 2.0 Type-B form factor cards. Which is a still pretty new memory format. So new that the actual media that you will be likely be looking to use is still not out yet. i.e. Sandisk, Angelbird, etc. Notice all those announcements and "coming soons" still hang in the air. It's November and some of those cards should have been shipping in September. Previously they were supposed to be shipping much earlier too and somehow some are/did. Lexar nearly spilled the beans on why a lot of the chaos has been occurring here, but I personally would say CFexpress 2.0 Type-B is more of a 2020 thing. Sony, who is a major player here, literally released a camera recently and didn't use this format on a camera that would greatly benefit from the speed boosts even.

There's been a good deal of hurdles regarding this particular media type and a host of quibbles that are even coming to the surface on cameras now supporting the format that are being released next year even.

For instance, the Canon C500 MK II can only use 512GB and up capacities likely due to sustained read/write related things (which for core memory manufactures is a spec that got locked this month), in which case this would likely be true-ish for Komodo to some degree if this media type was possible to deploy. There's also the massive issue of heat generation, which you'll see warnings on media bay doors on a few cameras coming out w/ CFexpress 2.0 Type-B. I believe the text you'll see is "Be Careful, Hot". That heat generation would have a pretty negative impact on smaller cameras for sure.

Trust me. Nobody on earth wants faster media more than I do. But media volatility over reliability is a much higher issue over anything our hearts truly will ever desire when it comes to captured imagery. It's all being worked on right now as we all speak and who knows what happens by the time Komodo launches, but what is available and reliable today in this space is stuff that's been around for a minute.


As of this second you'll notice an "extreme" lack of speed tests concerning sustained reads and writes for all of the newer CFexpress 2.0 Type-B cards. That in itself is the most telling thing. Already depending on capacity there's a broad range.


CFexpress is 100% coming however. But as of November, 2019 as Jarred noted "it's still a unicorn". And if you're looking for a more personal/spoiler alert related take from my side of things expect for motion picture camera use things like that 512GB recommended lowest capacity and sustained writes hanging around 600-1200MB/s to be "things" at the end of the day with CFexpress. Good CFast 2.0 writes are in the 490MB/s range and have been for a while. The fastest sustained write I've seen to date on an unreleased card is 800MB/s and that's about all I can say on that matter for now.

And yet the spiciest meatball of CFexpress has much more to do with Type-C, which nobody in the world is focused on at the moment.


To give you the TL;DR version. You'll certainly see cameras in 2020 supporting CFexpress 2.0 Type-B, but as of this second it's just not a reliable reality in this space for media as of this second. Heck, pretty much everybody focused on CFexpress didn't know exactly what they were doing until February of this year and it's still being chiseled out as to what exactly is going on as recently as this month. But yeah, late Q1/Q2 2020, for sure stuff will be just hitting the market in stride. Earliest true availability is December of this year.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Agreed, there is something about how the image moves that looks more pleasing with global shutter.

Well it moves without distortion and all the pixels in the image capture the same moment. : )