KOMODO....

[Andrej Weiss]

I agree. I don’t need consumer bling features over solid high end IQ. The world is full of alternative cameras with all kinds of superficial features that may make it easier for some shooters take better pictures or shoot special effects, but it comes at the expense of ultimate image quality.

There is a reason Digital Bolex still brings close to its original purchase price on the used market despite all the newer alternatives. Exceptional film like image quality and color reproduction that still stands out if you have the basic photographic skills to use it.

Here’s hoping Komodo is a worthy and affordable successor.

I don't see FPS as consumer bling. What exactly is consumer bling that beieng offered by others?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Snip

Is it safe to assume that we still don't know about the the pièce de résistance of this camera?

What if all the FPS speculation is going in the wrong direction and the piece de resistance is that it’s does much higher frame rates? What is the max FPS possible on cf cards - or if there is internal buffer?

I doubt this is the case at this price point but who knows - one can dream.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

What if all the FPS speculation is going in the wrong direction and the piece de resistance is that it’s does much higher frame rates? What is the max FPS possible on cf cards - or if there is internal buffer?

I doubt this is the case at this price point but who knows - one can dream.

The thing is : Jarred said Blackmagic (Pocket 6K) does better in the FPS department so we know it won't be 56 or 60 fps in 6K.
I really doubt there's much hope for those higher FPS.

 

[DJ Meyer]

Guys not every camera is going to be all things to all people.

 

[andrewhake]

Jarred can you pls mount a Komodo to someone's forehead?

This photo makes the camera look so much smaller than I actually realized: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4BBD03hPaG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Is this THE CRADLE tm in this photo? Very much looking forward to seeing all the little accessories and bits and bobs you guys make for this thing. I would love to see a nice top handle for skate video style filming, and looks like you already have the side handles covered.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Guys not every camera is going to be all things to all people.

Would you agree that a camera that is half the price of Komodo shouldn't have specs double the performance of Komodo? Because that's really the risk with Komodo. Just because some are questioning the paths with Komodo, doesn't mean they propose that it should be "all things combined". I think that first, abandoning the idea that Komodo is existing in some limbo market of its own and second look at what others bring within the price-range Komodo exists. This is not unreasonable, it was the same idea when Hydrogen was close to shipping, calling for it to match up against the competition in order to actually be a viable option as a phone. Calling out Komodo to be a viable option as a camera within the price-point market it exists within is not unreasonable and not a demand to "be all things to all people".

 

[Ty Maier]

Would you agree that a camera that is half the price of Komodo shouldn't have specs double the performance of Komodo? Because that's really the risk with Komodo. Just because some are questioning the paths with Komodo, doesn't mean they propose that it should be "all things combined". I think that first, abandoning the idea that Komodo is existing in some limbo market of its own and second look at what others bring within the price-range Komodo exists. This is not unreasonable, it was the same idea when Hydrogen was close to shipping, calling for it to match up against the competition in order to actually be a viable option as a phone. Calling out Komodo to be a viable option as a camera within the price-point market it exists within is not unreasonable and not a demand to "be all things to all people".

Too much long winded negativity. Your posts in this thread feel less like an opinion and more like an agenda. Komodo is going to blow the image quality out of the water compared to all these cheaper options you refer to. That’s what people are paying for. Not for specs that mean very little when the end goal is image.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Too much long winded negativity. Your posts in this thread feel less like an opinion and more like an agenda.

So giving a reality check to the same kind of mentality that Hydrogen received when released is considered having an agenda? Sorry, but no, I'm just analyzing the info given and I'm not ever going to give up my own agency of thinking to conformative ideals spamming hyperbolic praises over and over. If that paints me as one of the "bad guys", so be it, but I'd rather see that we urge Red to do better than have the Komodo end up in the same place as the Hydrogen did. I want Komodo to be better than the competition, not worse. I have never understood the need to write hyperbolic praises over and over as some do, what would that accomplish? As an example, you praise Komodo's image quality performance while you've never seen any footage or used it, right? That is called bias, sorry, but it is. If Komodo is released with a low fps count and a picture quality that is better than any other camera on the market, sure, that would be it. But that's not gonna happen. It will have an image quality that is probably on par with the competition at its price-point, maybe have one more stop of DR and maybe a global shutter, but not enough to "exist in its own market". I'm gonna save my posts for the release of Komodo and check if my predictions were right, if not, great for everyone, if so, then what was the purpose of all the praises of a system that's not even released in specs yet?

 

[Aaron Lochert]

This image quality vs specs on paper debate sounds an awful lot like the Arri vs RED debate.

Perhaps RED learned something from Arri. We should see what the camera can do before making a bunch of judgment calls about what it can't.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Perhaps RED learned something from Arri. We should see what the camera can do before making a bunch of judgment calls about what it can't.

The entire IPP2 effort was clearly a response to Arri and Panasonic et al getting high marks for the out-of-camera look while Red had a reputation for needing some work to get a nice look from.

Now though... even though it will take a while for the reputation to fade, the out of camera color is beautiful. I get a lot of compliments and gratitude for that when people see the dailies.

 

[Phil Holland]

out-of-camera look while Red had a reputation for needing some work to get a nice look from.

Much of this stemmed from days of Mysterium-X and it was a bit more of a littered minefield of variety of visual quality. Things like ND and IR Contamination, crappy LEDs, etc. All played a role. There's some absolutely stunning Mysterium-X work out there though.

But the things that changed in my mind are/were:
- Evolution of sensor technology, namely from Dragon onwards
- Maturity and advancements of Color Science
- Introduction and adoption of the IPP2 Workflow

Once we got to these advanced sensors with way more color and less of an issue under different color sources then following that with the tone mapping of IPP2 to help fix some of the out of gamut chaos life has been pretty good when it comes to what people get straight away.

There's some other goodies in there, like improving the hardware signal and optical path going from DSMC to DSMC2. Even in my folded arm criticism and occasional early frustrations, once Dragon landed the game changed in a big way industry wide.

I shot something with spooky hard color earlier this year that pretty much was the worst stress test for any camera to capture due to the high gamut and saturation of the colors themselves as well as extremely broad dynamic range. A few times during that shoot I paused to consider that this was actually being captured in a single, well exposed image somehow with texture, detail, and stability. That shoot still blows my mind on just how filled up the scopes were.

 

[Peter Stanley]

This is one thing the Komodo will definitely do. Give more people a chance to shoot a 24fps RED cinema image. An image that is far superior to other cheaper cameras with more specs. I have a couple of those cheaper cameras and I like them but the image isn’t as filmic as red. RED got in so early now the look is what we’re used too, and I think more work goes into the sensor to give it that film look.

Red will also get you more work than those cheaper cameras, so starting with a Komodo and working up to the bigger toys will be good way to go.
I just hope we can purchase it in Australia when it’s released. Enjoying the teasers too, makes it all a bit more fun.

 

[andrewhake]

..if so, then what was the purpose of all the praises of a system that's not even released in specs yet

What was the purpose of all the blind criticism of a system that's not even released in specs yet? Consider for a moment that you have no idea what you are talking about. Something we all need to do more often.

Having purchased and used a camera does not make an expert on making and selling cameras. The same thing can easily be thrown right back at you. Worrying and complaining about the specs of an unreleased product that doesn't even sound like it will fit your needs isn't really very helpful for anyone.

Nobody is going to read these entire posts.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

The entire IPP2 effort was clearly a response to Arri and Panasonic et al getting high marks for the out-of-camera look while Red had a reputation for needing some work to get a nice look from.

Now though... even though it will take a while for the reputation to fade, the out of camera color is beautiful. I get a lot of compliments and gratitude for that when people see the dailies.

I disagree. I think that's very subjective considering I usually default to Dragon Color 2/RED Gamma 4 on my Monstro a lot of the time anyway.

I'm still getting used to IPP2 Color science, and when I do use it, I'll use -12 tint. I'm not really into the saturated colors all that much (IPP2). It's definitely a stylistic choice.

 

[Mike P.]

What was the purpose of all the blind criticism of a system that's not even released in specs yet? Consider for a moment that you have no idea what you are talking about. Something we all need to do more often.

Having purchased and used a camera does not make an expert on making and selling cameras. The same thing can easily be thrown right back at you. Worrying and complaining about the specs of an unreleased product that doesn't even sound like it will fit your needs isn't really very helpful for anyone.

Nobody is going to read these entire posts.

You'd criticize/comment on an unreleased camera in the hopes that your criticisms are potentially heard/taken into consideration/implemented before launch if possible. Conversely, there's really no point praising unreleased tech (which can so quickly be obsoleted these days).

 

[rand thompson]

David,


IMHO, the best color correction with IPP2 for Red R3d image files, is not to use "Tint" at all to correct the image, unless under some specific mixed light sources or poor CRI florescent lighting. It makes more tools, especially in Davinci Resolve much less useful when you do use "Tint". I've used Tint in the past like everyone else but never liked the results using it to correct a Red R3D file.

 

[Ryan Genova]

Would you agree that a camera that is half the price of Komodo shouldn't have specs double the performance of Komodo?

If everything else were equal then I would totally agree with this. I have a Pocket 6K, and yes, it can shoot 6K 50fps, but other than that, if Komodo pans out to be what we all seem to be expecting right now, frame rate is about the only advantage the Pocket 6K has. The dynamic range is decent, the color science isn't bad, the overall image is good, but not stellar, and BRAW is definitely inferior to R3D. Don't get me wrong, it's a really exceptional camera for the price, but it's image certainly isn't in the same class as RED. The superior dynamic range, highlight rolloff, cinematic image, RED color science, Redcode RAW, etc. are all things that people are obviously willing to pay a premium for. Plus there's autofocus and presumably some other killer feature that's yet to be announced.

This is one thing the Komodo will definitely do. Give more people a chance to shoot a 24fps RED cinema image. An image that is far superior to other cheaper cameras with more specs. I have a couple of those cheaper cameras and I like them but the image isn’t as filmic as red.

I'm sure, for a lot of people (including myself), having the opportunity to shoot a 6K RED image, even at a max of 24fps, would be well worth the premium cost over the competition and worth sacrificing some other specs like higher frame rates. If Komodo has a S35 or larger sensor and can capture 6K 24fps R3D to CFast at a reasonable compression ratio with even around 14-15 stops of dynamic range then I'm sold.

 

[Daniel Porto]

hopefully there is variable frame rate between 30 and 60 fps and not the massive jump! 33.33 ftw

 

[BrendanLeahy]

Ending support for obsolete products, for which original parts no longer exist is not the same thing as abandoning an entire brand and business over minor issues with the first generation.
Did Samsung quit making phones because Galaxy 7's literally went up in flames and were banned from airplanes?

There is a quote from Thomas Edison posted on the walls of our local GE plant regarding his attempts to make the first commercially viable light bulb: " I have not failed 10,000 times. I have discovered 10,000 ways that won't work"

Lol.

 

[Jarred Land]

Would you agree that a camera that is half the price of Komodo shouldn't have specs double the performance of Komodo? Because that's really the risk with Komodo. Just because some are questioning the paths with Komodo, doesn't mean they propose that it should be "all things combined". I think that first, abandoning the idea that Komodo is existing in some limbo market of its own and second look at what others bring within the price-range Komodo exists. This is not unreasonable, it was the same idea when Hydrogen was close to shipping, calling for it to match up against the competition in order to actually be a viable option as a phone. Calling out Komodo to be a viable option as a camera within the price-point market it exists within is not unreasonable and not a demand to "be all things to all people".

You can be a critic, that is ok. We have lots of them.

But saying in a blanket statement that a camera that is half the price shouldn't have double the performance that's not a fair statement... you are talking about one box. And jeeze... using the standard critics go-to argument, our cameras have literally had twice the performance and been half the price for of ARRI cameras for years in almost every spec and they still do just fine...

And for some reason you are adamant that Komodo never was designed to exist in it's own market , but that simply isn't true. I can tell you that, because I designed it.

Baby Dragon, which became Komodo, started development way before Hydrogen was a thing. It was designed specifically to compliment our existing cameras in scenarios that its big brother cameras couldn't operate in and our sensor team was also given the task to solve one of the biggest issues that cmos sensors have, in which they succeeded.

I get it though.. The Hydrogen Camera module created confusion. This sensor was also going to be used for the Hydrogen module before that ended , which instantly created a ton of expectations and assumptions that crossed over to Komodo since that Hydrogen camera module was specifically targeted for the market you are convinced that Komodo belongs in. And so there is where you are right in pointing the finger, because It automatically inherits those comparisons.


BTW.. The frame rate isn't artificially neutered to somehow protect our existing camera lineup as the conspiracy theorists suggest. It's a new technology for us and our sensor team also for the first time integrated PDAF pixels for focus and ultimately image quality and it's size were the main drivers. When I said that you wont buy Komodo for it's frame rates... I meant it.

But there are so, so many other things that are more important for this camera. So if you ONLY shoot 60fps every day all day and don't want to shoot in 4k to get there then you shouldn't buy a Komodo. Obviously.

And yes.. there will be many people that buy a Komodo and shoot it as their only camera or thier "a" camera because it actually is very good at that. It's a great camera for education as well. I actually love just picking it up and shooting with it. But that's not what it was designed for. You clearly have your own idea of what success for Komodo is... But if we only ever sell Komodo to our existing customers to compliment their cameras, which it was designed for... then to me it will be a great success.

you praise Komodo's image quality performance while you've never seen any footage or used it, right? That is called bias, sorry, but it is.

actually... he has.