KOMODO....

[David Rasberry]

Nope. Not going to happen.

If red does not provide a “for free” monitoring solution then its more than a few grand more to get started.
.

I have a feeling the “free” monitor solution will be an Android phone app. Whether that will only work with a Hydrogen is the question.

I also think it will only record redcode internally. Video recording will require an Atomos or similar. Codecs cost money.

You can always stick a $60 BMD SDI converter on any cheap HDMI monitor to get started.

Komodo with uncompromised IQ redcode recording at competitive frame rates for its price range will hold its own market niche just fine. It just isn’t the Red in your pocket DSMC solution the Hydrogen crowd wants.

 

[jordan levy]

A practical Raven package is/was well north of $10k the last time I checked.

I think he means selling the body brand new for $6K, which they did. and it's worth about the same today. The Komodo might need almost everything a Raven needs to get started. My only hope is there is control settings on the camera, so that we can use any way of monitoring, like possibly an evf, and not use one because it has the camera control. I also doubt the camera will do above 60fps at 4k. 6k might max out at 30p. my other hope is that the sensor does not crop shooting at 4k and make it smaller then s35, that's a massive deal breaker.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

To be disruptive, as I see it, Red would need to make this release a monstro8k comodo for 5kusd anything less in the square form factor / no screen excetra I think a lot of people will pass on and instead get a ready to shoot 6k option for less.

With more and more people pronouncing Komodo as commode, there are chances that while pressing the camera on your face there may be visions of toilet. And more likely is the following scenario. Some of the clients ask us to shoot in cameras that are the flavour of the moment. So a client calls up.
Client: Hello. Do you shoot in a commode?
DP: Hmmm. I release in a commode.
Client: How can you release if you don't shoot in a commode?
DP (exasperated): What kind of questioning is this? Never in my life I have discussed my toilet habits with anyone. Not even with a doctor.
Client: Toilet? What? I am talking about commode camera.
DP: Ohh Komodo? (facepalm)

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Um I was talking about the $5,000 price tag hence the Mini LF 80k in the same sentence.

Komodo is still $6000 even if you meant price. It's only $5000 if you own a Hydrogen. Meaning, this is going to be a purchase in which you buy the camera in a bundle with the Hydrogen and an option to do it without for those who already owns a Hydrogen. Otherwise, Jarred's note on the pricing doesn't make sense.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

One spec that hasn't been discussed yet and that would be of great interest to me (and I'm sure others) is the sensor ratio : I'd want it to be 3:2 (1.5:1) so that we can shoot anamorphic without going under the 3840 minimum horizontal pixel resolution required by Netflix and therefore being able to use Komodo for Netflix Originals in Anamorphic. (I'm not saying I'm working on such a project, but it would be most useful if the sensor was tailored that way like Kinefinity did on Mavo and Mavo LF)

It would also make sense since Atlas Anamorphics has EF mount lenses in its catalog.

 

[gabrielB]

Oui Bastien. I'm really hoping we get a sensor size/ratio that's anamorphic friendly. Been thinking about this since camera was announced.

 

[Mathias Erichsen]

Otherwise, Jarred's note on the pricing doesn't make sense.

Well, it could just mean that Hydrogen owners will get a discount on the Komodo (as a replacement for the cine module that never happened?)
I really hope we don’t need a Hydrogen to operate the Komodo.

 

[David Rasberry]

I think he means selling the body brand new for $6K, which they did. and it's worth about the same today. The Komodo might need almost everything a Raven needs to get started. My only hope is there is control settings on the camera, so that we can use any way of monitoring, like possibly an evf, and not use one because it has the camera control. I also doubt the camera will do above 60fps at 4k. 6k might max out at 30p. my other hope is that the sensor does not crop shooting at 4k and make it smaller then s35, that's a massive deal breaker.

There is still a side of Komodo yet to be revealed. The difference between Komodo and Raven is you will not need expensive DSMC accessories to build a working rig. I looked seriously at the Raven, but by the time I put together even a minimally functional field kit it was well over $10k.
With Komodo i already have everything I need for a basic field package from other camera kits. Batteries and Beachtek preamp from my old Canon GL2, usable EVF from my Bolex, a set of Minolta MD lenses. Only need C-fast media and reader, MD to RC lens adapter, and an SDI to HDMI converter. Assuming Komodo comes in at $6k including the phone, I'm shooting for less than $7k.

I do think Hydrogen will be an essential piece of the kit.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Well, it could just mean that Hydrogen owners will get a discount on the Komodo (as a replacement for the cine module that never happened?)
I really hope we don’t need a Hydrogen to operate the Komodo.

I really think Hydrogen can be an option. Not the only way to operate the camera, but an option. Maybe for wireless operations or maybe if you already have an Hydrogen you can plug the camera out of the box via the pins on the phone otherwide you need to by an adapter cable and a RED Touch Screen ?

 

[David Rasberry]

Nope. Not going to happen.

I really think Hydrogen can be an option. Not the only way to operate the camera, but an option. Maybe for wireless operations or maybe if you already have an Hydrogen you can plug the camera out of the box via the pins on the phone otherwide you need to by an adapter cable and a RED Touch Screen ?

It is not a DSMC camera. Why pay $2750 for a RED touchscreen plus some unknown adapter when the phone will be 1/2 that or less? A touch screen is a touch screen. The phone can potentially do many other things, like proxy recording for dailies, upload to the cloud, live stream, slate and logs metadata, drone and gymbal controls.

It is also not a dockable module for Hydrogen 1.

I expect wireless or tethered control via Android app will be the option. I think USB-C 3.1/TB3 is a must connection to be competitive for this class of camera too. The question is will it be restricted to Hydrogen or workable with other Android devices?

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

I’m betting we’ll find out more soon. Panasonic is going to be talking about their new 6k mirrorless and RED has a history of planning their announcements to distract from competing announcements.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

It is not a DSMC camera. Why pay $2750 for a RED touchscreen plus some unknown adapter when the phone will be 1/2 that or less? A touch screen is a touch screen. The phone can potentially do many other things, like proxy recording for dailies, upload to the cloud, live stream, slate and logs metadata, drone and gymbal controls.

It is also not a dockable module for Hydrogen 1.

I expect wireless or tethered control via Android app will be the option. I think USB-C 3.1/TB3 is a must connection to be competitive for this class of camera too. The question is will it be restricted to Hydrogen or workable with other Android devices?

In that case that would mean that RED will basically sell a lot of Hydrogen phones to people that doesn't care at all about it as a phone
But I get your point and to me it's really a good point. Seems logical. And buying a... 1000-1500$ phone to use as a monitor and control the camera isn't really different than any other touch screen RED does for DSMC2 (I mean in its philosophy, I understand it is cheaper don't worry )

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Well, it could just mean that Hydrogen owners will get a discount on the Komodo (as a replacement for the cine module that never happened?)
I really hope we don’t need a Hydrogen to operate the Komodo.

Could be, but I'm actually hoping that we get a remote video option through the Hydrogen. Today, remote video from a camera isn't much of a big deal, but still exclusive to specific modules and expensive tech. To be able to have a remote directors monitor in such a small package would be tremendous and well worth having the Hydrogen for. Maybe there's a module for the Hydrogen which connects remote video to the phone and that's why we can't just use any phone. I would rather have the ability to stream to whatever phone and tablet possible, but even if it's locked to Hydrogen, that would be a very good setup. Attach an Atmos monitor as a recorder and operator monitor and have the director use the Hydrogen as a directors monitor.

There's potential in this setup.

 

[gabrielB]

buying a... 1000-1500$ phone to use as a monitor and control the camera isn't really different than any other touch screen RED does for DSMC2

In real world usage you need a high bright display of 1500+ nits to be a workable solution in all environments. You need it to be rugged. You need it to not shut down a few seconds after the sun hits it because it's overheating. It needs secure and rugged power and signal input. You need to attach it securely to the camera that allows you to adjust position and tilt etc.

So... a phone as a monitoring solution sounds like a nightmare to me...

 

[gabrielB]

It's the perfect time for Red to be disruptive, scale back prices, return to the democratizing philosophy of affordable high-end cinema cameras. Build up a new customer base while keeping the old, keeping larger productions and then when the negative effects of the disruption of Red's own lineup settle down, they release DSCM3.

You share interesting points from a business perspective about bringing a disruptive camera to the market now in order to shake things up a bit, put RED on the spotlight again as a company democratizing high end cinema cameras, have people move to RED as a result and how all of that could tie in with a long term strategy of positioning themselves in a strong way leading to the eventual release of DSMC3.

That'd actually be a great strategy but do they want/need to do that though, now that they're an established company with a significant market share of high-end productions ? With the release of Ranger they've tapped into a previously unexplored segment of the industry, perhaps they liked the taste of that and hope to put even more focus and energy there to try and address how ARRI has over time become the default choice for a lot of professionals and productions. Perhaps we'll see RED move more and more into that territory which offers potentially higher profit margins instead of focusing on democratization that offers lower profit margins but stronger volumes and sales.

I remember Jarred talking about refinements and how he acknowledged RED could continue to improve in that regard. ARRI has grabbed a huge portion of the market and their refinement skills has got a lot to do with that in my opinion.

That all makes me wonder, can you as a business focus successfully on low cost premium quality products AND higher cost products aimed at production professionals and rental houses ? Especially if these products offer similar image capture abilities and sensor technology ? Do you have to choose your fight ?...

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

You share interesting points from a business perspective about bringing a disruptive camera to the market now in order to shake things up a bit, put RED on the spotlight again as a company democratizing high end cinema cameras, have people move to RED as a result and how all of that could tie in with a long term strategy of positioning themselves in a strong way leading to the eventual release of DSMC3.

That'd actually be a great strategy but do they want/need to do that though, now that they're an established company with a significant market share of high-end productions ? With the release of Ranger they've tapped into a previously unexplored segment of the industry, perhaps they liked the taste of that and hope to put even more focus and energy there to try and address how ARRI has over time become the default choice for a lot of professionals and productions. Perhaps we'll see RED move more and more into that territory which offers potentially higher profit margins instead of focusing on democratization that offers lower profit margins but stronger volumes and sales.

I remember Jarred talking about refinements and how he acknowledged RED could continue to improve in that regard. ARRI has grabbed a huge portion of the market and their refinement skills has got a lot to do with that in my opinion.

That all makes me wonder, can you as a business focus successfully on low cost premium quality products AND higher cost products aimed at production professionals and rental houses ? Especially if these products offer similar image capture abilities and sensor technology ? Do you have to choose your fight ?...

That's very interesting indeed.
I would look at this through Sony. They have Venice, their current higher end cinema camera and they have the FS5II, they current lower end cinema camera. (I know the S35/FF sensor isn't at all the only thing that makes a video camera "a cinema camera" but let's simplify for the sake of this discussion)
Both cameras are great choice for their end of the market. They offer what they have to offer and both are a cool package.
I don't believe any camera on the market is the best. Every camera can be the best for one specific job and budget.

Maybe RED can reproduce that dynamic with Komodo and DSMC 3 AND at the same time bringing back the discruptive aspect of the company they had back in the Red One days. If we go back to Sony Land and look at the F55 and FS7. Both offers similar sized sensors ( but not the same), the same codec options (not entirely true but whatever) and can record RAW. But everything about those two camera is different.
Maybe Komodo could be the FS7 of RED ?

 

[RJ_Ortiz]

Since we're just waiting for more information at this point, I'm going to post my guess and thoughts:

6K RED-Only sensor (NOT Z-cam or OTS). S35+
50FPS @ 6K, 96 @ 5K, 120 @ 4K (Windowed)
15 Stops DR
Dual ISO / IPP2
R3D internal only to CFAST
Only 3 pin start/stop pins on top. Remainder is cheeseplate / fans.
Improved WIFI for remote settings control.
Battery life of 5 hours on 2 Canon Batteries. Hot swappable.
Larger fan(s) and quieter operation than its bigger brothers.
Possible EXT cam controls through something like the SmallHD Cine 7.
Price: $5799 MSRP, $4799 for H1 original owners.

I keep thinking about all of these wishlists and their target market segment. While I think it's a gateway camera for the ecosystem, I don't believe it is fully intended for new customers as much as existing ones. If it was meant to be a direct competitor to mirrorless/zcam/Pocket cams then I would think we would have seen in it in different influencer's hands. Instead, we're seeing it used on a film by Soderbergh starring Meryl Streep. This is to truly test it for reliability on critical productions. Big risk there with new tech. That's why I feel like it's intended to be used in addition to the current DSMC2 line as a b-cam or gimbal cam. Something that will be as reliable as their other cameras and produce similar IQ in a small package. It's not meant to replace them. It's meant to support them. Sure, some filmmakers will make it their A-Cam. I think that's the point of having Soderbergh test it the way he is. Proving that it can stand on its own so that you can trust it stand alongside your other gear.

 

[jordan levy]

There is still a side of Komodo yet to be revealed. The difference between Komodo and Raven is you will not need expensive DSMC accessories to build a working rig. I looked seriously at the Raven, but by the time I put together even a minimally functional field kit it was well over $10k.
With Komodo i already have everything I need for a basic field package from other camera kits. Batteries and Beachtek preamp from my old Canon GL2, usable EVF from my Bolex, a set of Minolta MD lenses. Only need C-fast media and reader, MD to RC lens adapter, and an SDI to HDMI converter. Assuming Komodo comes in at $6k including the phone, I'm shooting for less than $7k.

I do think Hydrogen will be an essential piece of the kit.

except with the Raven or SW you most likely will be able to do higher frame rates with less sensor cropping, its expandable for all dsmc2 accessories so that you can use it professionally in different situations. The expectations for this camera seem a bit ridiculous, i highly doubt it will have anamorphic capability, go above 60fps, probably limited compression(even the Raven's is limited) and probably be a cropped sensor if you want to shoot 4k, and 6k i bet fps are limited to 30fps. so like helium the sensor might get very small for any higher speed stuff. anyway, expectation is the root of unhappiness, so dont expect a lot and youll be fine. yes, komodo might wind up a tad bit cheaper, but have it's limitations im sure.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Since we're just waiting for more information at this point, I'm going to post my guess and thoughts:

6K RED-Only sensor (NOT Z-cam or OTS). S35+
50FPS @ 6K, 96 @ 5K, 120 @ 4K (Windowed)
15 Stops DR
Dual ISO / IPP2
R3D internal only to CFAST
Only 3 pin start/stop pins on top. Remainder is cheeseplate / fans.
Improved WIFI for remote settings control.
Battery life of 5 hours on 2 Canon Batteries. Hot swappable.
Larger fan(s) and quieter operation than its bigger brothers.
Possible EXT cam controls through something like the SmallHD Cine 7.
Price: $5799 MSRP, $4799 for H1 original owners.

I keep thinking about all of these wishlists and their target market segment. While I think it's a gateway camera for the ecosystem, I don't believe it is fully intended for new customers as much as existing ones. If it was meant to be a direct competitor to mirrorless/zcam/Pocket cams then I would think we would have seen in it in different influencer's hands. Instead, we're seeing it used on a film by Soderbergh starring Meryl Streep. This is to truly test it for reliability on critical productions. Big risk there with new tech. That's why I feel like it's intended to be used in addition to the current DSMC2 line as a b-cam or gimbal cam. Something that will be as reliable as their other cameras and produce similar IQ in a small package. It's not meant to replace them. It's meant to support them. Sure, some filmmakers will make it their A-Cam. I think that's the point of having Soderbergh test it the way he is. Proving that it can stand on its own so that you can trust it stand alongside your other gear.

Two things in your specs wishlists that seems too good to be true to me (meaning that if it's actually there it's AWESOME) :
- I don't think 6K will be beyond 36 fps at FF6K (24x1.5. Don't ask me why, it's just a gut feeling ) and 60 fps at 6K 2.4:1
- I don't think it will have dual ISO. (again : would be too good to be true... Please RED make me wrong ^_^)

 

[gabrielB]

Jarred and co must be having a lot of fun monitoring the debates and conversations if they're not too busy working overnight troubleshooting and working out the kinks of the new camera on their favorite guinea pig's production shooting as we speak.

They throw us a few bones and we chew on them until they throw a few more... They sure like to do it that way, more fun for them isn't? Imagine if they just announced everything all at once with specs and detailed images like other companies do...

In any case I hope they are listening and taking things in consideration. There has been valuable input here over these pages I believe.

Camera control and integration with accessories is on my mind a lot. I like how Teradek's RT MDR solutions integrate with the current RED lineup, offer camera control options and can also focus electronic lenses for a clean and light setup. Surely they must have thought about integrations such as this because they know people are gonna throw their Komodo on gimbals, drones, cars, planes, helmets you name it. With no modules expansion apparent, are we back at having a mess of addons rigged all over the place?
I like to think third party products such as the SmallHD Cine 7 which promises integration with RED cameras will be able to connect and control our little cube. I like to think we'll be able to do those two things above simultaneously and it won't be one or the other (both would probably need the equivalent of a CTRL connector)

I like tactile buttons and controllers and their reliability compared to wireless solutions. I'd love to have an accessory similar to the Teradek RT ACI (with MDR integrated) built for Komodo. I think phones are great as a secondary way to control a camera but I hope it won't be the only way besides RED's own monitors. (Sometimes you just want a little EVF on there and off you go)

I secretly hope the new EXT connector does more than CTRL+SYNC. Ability to add control modules, split control outputs or "daisy chain" accessories so more than one can tap into the RCP protocol, perhaps add professional audio on this thing via XLR addon little box. And now I know I'm starting to dream but with cooling system from side to side it could even open up the options to create modules that would attach at the bottom (making the camera taller like its big brothers) so we could get proper audio, or a processing module that could allow higher frame rate capture. Like I said I'm dreamin' but all I'm saying is I see the potential for that new EXT port to offer a richer, improved and future proof way of dealing with expansion and accessory integration.