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KOMODO....

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You've shared similar comments over this thread. I just don't understand the BMD vs RED cameras discussion/argument.

Because the Komodo is placed in this mid-range section of cameras. ZCam, Pocket, rumored Sony and Komodo are all within a mid-range section right under the high-end cameras like Alexa Mini LF, Helium, Monstro, Gemini, Sony Venice etc.

They are tools aimed at different markets; I don't think RED is even trying to compete with BMD.

How is Komodo in a different market than the Pocket 6K? Helium, Monstro and Gemini is a different market, if Komodo isn't a direct competition with the higher line-up, then what is it in a competition with? Komodo and BM's Pocket 6K share a lot in specs and price, so does Komodo with the ZCam's.


Here are some major things we expect the Komodo will bring to the table: higher DR, better frame rates options, better color, proper IR filter and no moire/aliasing (i.e. adequate OLPF) and build quality. These are all VERY important and justify a more premium pricing. Things like faster boot times are secondary.

How can you verify anything about the sensor when no info has been released? Fast boot time is not secondary, not for his kind of camera. Being able to have a camera prepped, handheld, doc-style turn on and shoot is a feature that radically change how you can use the camera. Do you think that professional still cameras handle boot times as a "secondary" feature? Boot times on Red cameras have always been a downside, almost always forcing a hot-swap solution on a fast paced set. But if boot times are minimal, you can go for hours without having to keep feeding power to the camera. If you're outside, in a place where you have limited battery supplies and power options, to be able to have the camera turned off and ready instead of always on when looking for moments to shoot is a powerful feature. Just because you don't shoot like this, doesn't mean that such a feature is irrelevant.

I have the pocket cam; yes you can capture really nice footage with it. But it's a little toy. BMD sells their cameras to people who dream of making cinema. Komodo is already being used by people making cinema.

Soderbergh shot his last two movies on iPhones, how do you classify that choice? It's Soderbergh who officially shoots with the Komodo now. The Pocket 6K is only a toy in the hands of incompetence. Most footage from it has a teal/orange LUT slapped on and looks like shit, but give the camera to a professional cinematographer and it will do wonders. This whole "brand" or "expensive" level equipment-idea of what defines to be a professional is so old that I'm surprised it's still around.

Here's what's important to professionals: Footage acquisition quality, acquisition color science, compatibility with industry standard equipment/cables/wireless, built quality, reliability and ease of use.
All camera companies does better or worse within these areas and Red is not different. Where BM doesn't deliver in built quality it exceels in ease of use and speed.

So, what is a "toy"? How do you define a "toy" in this age of cameras? The BM pocket would have easily outperformed the iPhones used on Unsane and High Flying Bird, so is it still a "toy" for dreamers?

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The Komodo exist at this range of cameras, a range that is slowly getting closer to the specs of what we consider highest end cinema cameras. So the Komodo will be judged by how it performs against the current and upcoming cameras at this range. If it delivers over-priced performance compared to the competitors, no one but blind fans will buy them. If it exceeds and delivers a low priced powerhouse, no one will care for any other camera in this range. This is why I urge Red to really seriously take a look at the competition and consider even disrupting their own high-end lineup. Because it's not at all like at the highest end range where you choose whatever you want and prices are so high across the board that differences between camera pricing becomes neglectable. Pocket 6K is not a "toy", neither will Komodo be. But at a $3500 higher price-range it certainly must deliver far more than what the Pocket 6K does, otherwise it will fail completely among the one's who work within this range of camera pricing.
 
The Pocket 6K does too many things right, I think it's gonna be a hard sell for the Komodo if it can't meet things like these. The fact that it does all of what it can do, together with having such a low price that it enables you to get A LOT of side-gear to beef up the cam into production standards... and still be able to get two of them at slightly above the price of one Komodo... Red needs to really nail this thing.

To me, key things the Komodo has over the Pocket 6K (please note that's my own speculations even if I think they are most likely to happen) :

- Redcode RAW. I love working (in post) with this format. From what I've seen, either BRAW and/or Blackmagic "Cinema" (log) gamma curve isn't as flat as it should be and even if the color science is awesome, it's not quite Redcode good yet. Again, TO ME.

- Color Science. I suppose Komodo will have the same color science and color pipeline as the DSMC2 line has right now, or something very close. THAT is awesome.

- Lens mount. The Canon R whatever mount offers a bit more flexibility than the regular Canon Mount.

- Formfactor. This one is really tricky but hear me out... Or read me out ? :p
I think the "cubic" formfactor of the Komodo makes it way easier to rig up and I do think we can all agree that both this camera and Pocket 6K need to be rigged to be usable. I'm NOT saying Pocket 6K has a bad formfactor, just that Komodo's seems to be easier to work with to me.

This is just my personal opinion, not any form of truth. :)
 
I absolutely agree Bastien.

For me, the cube form factor works beautifully into my pipeline and even for some cases where I'd use a medium format camera with a 24MP digital back for fashion or other projects.

I dream of a few scenarios where an array of 4 matched Komodo rigs are placed Side-By-Side for Q4V capture as that is what I enjoy most!

From one of the instagram photos where it's rigged up with the GDU lens, we have almost established that it must have some form of serious AF (tap to focus with ramping curves???) so I can imagine run&gun or even tiny and action-related rigs could very well consist of just a side-handle, battery (or battery inside the side-handle?) 5" monitor or Hydrogen and a lens with a hood attachment.
Since NDs are taken care of courtesy of the Canon EF to RF mount, the possibilities for ultra-small form factor are practically endless!!!

What would your use case be for the Komodo?

As an A/Main Cam?
B Camera?
Drone/Jib/Steadi-camera?
Crash cam?
DSLR/Mirrorless Replacement?
 
To me, key things the Komodo has over the Pocket 6K (please note that's my own speculations even if I think they are most likely to happen) :

- Redcode RAW. I love working (in post) with this format. From what I've seen, either BRAW and/or Blackmagic "Cinema" (log) gamma curve isn't as flat as it should be and even if the color science is awesome, it's not quite Redcode good yet. Again, TO ME.

- Color Science. I suppose Komodo will have the same color science and color pipeline as the DSMC2 line has right now, or something very close. THAT is awesome.

- Lens mount. The Canon R whatever mount offers a bit more flexibility than the regular Canon Mount.

- Formfactor. This one is really tricky but hear me out... Or read me out ? :p
I think the "cubic" formfactor of the Komodo makes it way easier to rig up and I do think we can all agree that both this camera and Pocket 6K need to be rigged to be usable. I'm NOT saying Pocket 6K has a bad formfactor, just that Komodo's seems to be easier to work with to me.

This is just my personal opinion, not any form of truth. :)

I think you nailed it. Did a shoot the other day on Epic Dragon but we used the BMPCC4K for gimbal. Footage from the BM looked like garbage in comparison. R3D is a huge win. And personally, I find the BM form factor terrible.
 
My question is what will be the "penalty" price for not buying into the Hydrogen phones? And how will I interact with the UI without that phone? I hope there will be a peripheral that will be conducive and not rack the price up too much for the camera system.

With DSMC2, I didn't buy their monitors as I use SmallHD equipment for monitoring. I purchased their side handle and sidekick to have tactile interaction with the camera. I know from the Soderbergh pic they were interacting via the Atomos. But I'm not interested in that. I'm a shoot R3D guy all the way.

I hope there will be a clever option in place to shoot with this little box other than a proprietary phone.
 
I absolutely agree Bastien.

For me, the cube form factor works beautifully into my pipeline and even for some cases where I'd use a medium format camera with a 24MP digital back for fashion or other projects.

I dream of a few scenarios where an array of 4 matched Komodo rigs are placed Side-By-Side for Q4V capture as that is what I enjoy most!

From one of the instagram photos where it's rigged up with the GDU lens, we have almost established that it must have some form of serious AF (tap to focus with ramping curves???) so I can imagine run&gun or even tiny and action-related rigs could very well consist of just a side-handle, battery (or battery inside the side-handle?) 5" monitor or Hydrogen and a lens with a hood attachment.
Since NDs are taken care of courtesy of the Canon EF to RF mount, the possibilities for ultra-small form factor are practically endless!!!

What would your use case be for the Komodo?

As an A/Main Cam?
B Camera?
Drone/Jib/Steadi-camera?
Crash cam?
DSLR/Mirrorless Replacement?

To me : every use case except crash cam.
I am mostly an editor and colorist by trade and writer/director on the side. Komodo would be a really nice camera to OWN. (as are Zcams or Pocket 6K and others in the sub 10K$ market... Even the Mavo LF from Kinefinity would be an awesome camera, to expansive for ME to own AND justify its cost but still)

As I said, I LOOOOOOVE working with Redcode Raw so as of right now Komodo is kinda my dream camera.
(I edited a TV Show pilot shot in 6K on RED Dragon using only .R3D in a 4K UHD timeline without a RED Rocket card and WITHOUT ANY TROUBLE ! It is simply awesome !)
 
To me, key things the Komodo has over the Pocket 6K (please note that's my own speculations even if I think they are most likely to happen) :

- Redcode RAW. I love working (in post) with this format. From what I've seen, either BRAW and/or Blackmagic "Cinema" (log) gamma curve isn't as flat as it should be and even if the color science is awesome, it's not quite Redcode good yet. Again, TO ME.

- Color Science. I suppose Komodo will have the same color science and color pipeline as the DSMC2 line has right now, or something very close. THAT is awesome.

- Lens mount. The Canon R whatever mount offers a bit more flexibility than the regular Canon Mount.

- Formfactor. This one is really tricky but hear me out... Or read me out ? :p
I think the "cubic" formfactor of the Komodo makes it way easier to rig up and I do think we can all agree that both this camera and Pocket 6K need to be rigged to be usable. I'm NOT saying Pocket 6K has a bad formfactor, just that Komodo's seems to be easier to work with to me.

This is just my personal opinion, not any form of truth. :)

Redcode RAW has the highest compression at a certain quality, the downside is that it uses a lot more compute power at the same resolution(compared to other codecs).
At 6k raw 24 fps 3:1 (238 MB/s) you can shoot 64 minutes on a 960 GB $2,350 minimag ($36.72/minute).
At 6k BRAW 24 fps Q0 (386 MB/s) you can shoot 80 minutes on a 2TB $300 USB 3.1 gen 2 drive ($3.75/minute).

The main difference between RED DSMC2 and the BMPCC 6k is the DR of the sensor, Redcode was great at the days of expensive flash storage, storage is cheap these days.

The worst thing about Komodo is that it is not available to the public (the BMPCC6K is, when it's not sold-out).
 
To me, key things the Komodo has over the Pocket 6K (please note that's my own speculations even if I think they are most likely to happen) :

- Redcode RAW. I love working (in post) with this format. From what I've seen, either BRAW and/or Blackmagic "Cinema" (log) gamma curve isn't as flat as it should be and even if the color science is awesome, it's not quite Redcode good yet. Again, TO ME.

- Color Science. I suppose Komodo will have the same color science and color pipeline as the DSMC2 line has right now, or something very close. THAT is awesome.

- Lens mount. The Canon R whatever mount offers a bit more flexibility than the regular Canon Mount.

- Formfactor. This one is really tricky but hear me out... Or read me out ? :p
I think the "cubic" formfactor of the Komodo makes it way easier to rig up and I do think we can all agree that both this camera and Pocket 6K need to be rigged to be usable. I'm NOT saying Pocket 6K has a bad formfactor, just that Komodo's seems to be easier to work with to me.

This is just my personal opinion, not any form of truth. :)

Yes, but this depends on IF Komodo has R3D in-camera and at what compression. Formfactor makes it easier and lens mount is of course better.
But then we have the dual-ISO of the BM. The sensor almost works like a Gemini, but with low-light OLPF installed. The form of the Pocket 6K could be permanently mounted to a rig in order to make it ready to go, Red's cameras need to be assembled to a certain degree before shooting.

So there are plenty of similarities between them and it's important to factor in that the Pocket 6K is $2500 while Komodo seems to be $6000. It's a no-brainer that the lesser price has one stop less of effective DR, worse form-factor etc.

Point being, the Pocket 6K isn't as good as Komodo, but it shouldn't be. But if it is too close to the same specs, then the $6000 price tag is a problem. Komodo needs to be better, it needs to be the equivalent $6000 ZCam on paper, but with the competence of Red's engineering. If so, THAT is well worth $6000.
 
As we enter 2020 the camera landscape is radically different than just 10 years ago. Decently funded projects will still rely on high spec offerings -mostly from ARRI, RED/PV, Sony - as camera rental is likely less than 2% of their budget. More critically, cameras like the PV DXLs enable professional camera teams to employ best practices in acquisition. The crop of cameras we are comparing might have some of the chops needed to play on the biggest shows, but I don't see them replacing the big dogs as "A" cams.

The low end has been usurped by smart phone "phonography". So, as we are seeing, the hot space is cameras that significantly outperform phones at a price point low enough to sell in serious volume to both pros and discriminating amateurs. This segment is all about solo shooting scenarios with secondary applications for crewed shows.

As several posters have noted, the BM menu system is easy to navigate and they chose the widely used EF mount so potential buyers can utilize lenses many already own. They also kept the price down to draw in hobbyists and, more critically, drive up sales volumes to better amortize fixed costs. BMDs first camera models were a nightmare from a professional standpoint, but they have improved steadily over the years. They still have some notable blind spots, starting with ergonomics, but at $2,500...

The Sigma FP1 surprised me, did not see that coming. I look forward to giving one a proper test drive. On paper it looks competent to compete.

How will the Komodo fit into this space? For starters, I'd guess that RED is feeling the competitive pressure to keep the price down. Kind of ironic since RED destroyed Sony's pricing structure and release schedule (F23, F35, F65 debacle). Secondly, tons of demo footy from the BMPC6K - see Rand's posts in the BMPC6K thread - are on the net for review. While there are likely several techniques employed to show them at their best, it does establish a new level for BM cameras and puts the onus on the others to exceed it.

I would consider this segment to be rather price sensitive with $2,500 as the reference point. As others have suggested, if Komodo is $6,000 (plus monitor, power, media, etc), it would need to be clearly superior to the BMPC6K to justify the higher cost - especially if BM has gotten their act together on fulfillment/QC. FWIW, I do think this segment would pay more for serious HFR chops. 6K scaled in camera to 4K@120fps would be a selling point for a lot of use cases, 240fps (even with some caveats) would be very attractive if it could cut in decently with other UHD elements. At the higher end, "good enough" doesn't fully apply - in this segment, BM appears to have enough PQ for 99% of use cases - so how can RED, or anyone else, convince buyers to spend significantly more than $2,500?

Cheers - #19
 
I suppose one question we would hope Jarred might answer is: Why create Komodo in the first place? If we legitimately knew the answer we likely wouldn’t have 70 pages of what ifs.

My thoughts don’t matter but I suspect they were playing with sensors in the slimmest, most basic form with direct power and thought, “We kick ass with our sensors. It’s major tech we as a company have not gone away from. So let’s see what kind of fun shit we can get away with.” And it morphs into Komodo.

Of course, getting the next iteration of camera in the smallest package possible seems to be quite the RDC obsession too...

Jarred et co are certainly paying close attention to this thread. Do they want to compete with BM? I doubt they care. Markets will find their niches and Red will find theirs...sensor tech and R3D compression are the keys here.
 
My thoughts.

I think its sad it does not have a minimag slot. I would rather see less costly minimags than the use of cfast. Dont want to have to carry different media fir different cameras.


Same with the batteri slot. I liked the dsmc2 power modules I for sure would have rather seen lower cost power modules for the komodo than a fixed option for some batteries I dont have. Having to buy and a new kind of batteries and chargers...not so appealing.

The RF mount is really nice. Basically any lens can go on there, speedboosters and nd’s.

I hope sensor and image vice that red does not hold back on this one. To me the only logical option would be to put a sensor with same density as gemini but 6k and give it fully fledged r3d capability. Sure that would compete with all the 6k and less dsmc2 cameras but yes think that's needed to meet the competition.

I really hope they also make a ios / android monitoring solution similar to what dji has going. Simply put its really nice to drive a camera trough a phone or Ipad. The screens are better and you got internet, gps etc built in. Being able to edit and upload proxies right after I shoot with my drone is something I very much miss on red cameras.

Autofocus.... Good autofocus would be a game changer. That alone can justify the price difference between commodo and other options.

Red is in a bit if a pinch here where they might be afraid to kill thier own product line but as I think it they need to. Better to sell a shitload of komodo than protecting dragon and gemini as I see it. Having the best product at best price all ways beat product differentiation, but yes it takes guts to do so.
 
I think you nailed it. Did a shoot the other day on Epic Dragon but we used the BMPCC4K for gimbal. Footage from the BM looked like garbage in comparison. R3D is a huge win. And personally, I find the BM form factor terrible.


Garbage? Really?

I own the 4k pocket, but haven't used it much but appears similar to my G2. The G2 has lovely footage and easy to grade IMO. I think BM has done a good job of their colour.
 
Even if RED does give us the goods, there are even some things the Pocket 6K does that the RED does not. Mainly audio (phantom power), and certain other other features. There's a few things we know that Komodo does not do that the Blackmagic 6K can do. So RED really has to not hold back too much if they want to build a camera that is worth the $6000+ they charge. For professionals, the choice may be a bit more obvious, but to sell at Blackmagic levels, they need to really deliver. And RED sells in such low volumes all of the complaints about shipping delays that BM has may be even worse for RED. We have no idea.

Dynamic range we assume will be higher, but Sony semiconductor does build very good sensors these days, so there's a lot to compete with. IR Cut/OLPF from Rawlite will come out along with the LucAdapters magic booster, so if anything, Field of View will be mostly the same and low light sensitivity will probably be vastly superior on the Blackmagic.
 
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To be clear, for peeps that appreciate finely crafted images, the price delta is not a dealbreaker. The crux of my note was that once you get over a certain threshold of picture quality, you can create original photography that meets existing standards. IMO, for a large portion of this market segment, a few grand more is a genuine budget issue.

FWIW, I think the more salient issue is the limitations of the delivery/viewing model currently in place - but that's a different thread...

Cheers - #19
 
To be clear, for peeps that appreciate finely crafted images, the price delta is not a dealbreaker. The crux of my note was that once you get over a certain threshold of picture quality, you can create original photography that meets existing standards. IMO, for a large portion of this market segment, a few grand more is a genuine budget issue.

FWIW, I think the more salient issue is the limitations of the delivery/viewing model currently in place - but that's a different thread...

Cheers - #19

If red does not provide a “for free” monitoring solution then its more than a few grand more to get started. Even a low cost sdi screen cost quite a bit. BM lure in the low end by selling a full solution including battery in a box. Sure its not a complete setup but I think the 2,5k usd is something most can make back on a single project. 6k + usd is a totally different thing.

Back in the days I think I was the first to remove the mirror and make the cavity larger and get PL mounts onto canon 7 and 5Ds I think if someone does the same with the 6k pocket they will make a bundle. Im a bit tempted to try. Sold about 100 of those pl fitted 7Ds for double the 7D retail price. People used them mostly as rangefinders.
 
Because the Komodo is placed in this mid-range section of cameras. ZCam, Pocket, rumored Sony and Komodo are all within a mid-range section right under the high-end cameras like Alexa Mini LF, Helium, Monstro, Gemini, Sony Venice etc.

LOL cuz a 5k Komodo is "mid-range" while the Mini LF at 80k is "high-end." You sound delusional.



Soderbergh shot his last two movies on iPhones, how do you classify that choice? It's Soderbergh who officially shoots with the Komodo now. The Pocket 6K is only a toy in the hands of incompetence. Most footage from it has a teal/orange LUT slapped on and looks like shit, but give the camera to a professional cinematographer and it will do wonders. This whole "brand" or "expensive" level equipment-idea of what defines to be a professional is so old that I'm surprised it's still around.

Those iphone movies looked like doo doo and had to be overly lit just to compensate for that tiny ittybitty sensor.
 
My thoughts.
Autofocus.... Good autofocus would be a game changer. That alone can justify the price difference between commodo and other options.

True, I really hope this will be the next got to for gimbal work for solo shooters and small teams. You are probely right, that the Komodo needs to be abit over powered for its size and prize to put to make RED the "trouble maker" it was when it entered the market.
 
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