Jumping off the Red Wagon

[Frank Hague]

I've been a Reduser and supporter for four years and am very thankful for their previous upgrading paths. Shooting with Red has seen my clientele multiply and my skills exceed far beyond where I would have imagined them being today. Most importantly, I will forever be grateful for Red changing the game and bringing the world of professional cinema to us smaller folk in the first place.

That is why it saddens me to pack up and move on, but I see no other solution when I am being forced to spend dozens of thousands of dollars a year to keep up with their marketing. Gone are the upgrade paths that gave me true value on my camera, as now I'm offered about 75% of what I could get on the open market tomorrow for my Dragon. I was absolutely ecstatic for the Weapon release at NAB and had been saving money up for its upgrade, but its actual release saw a camera that was nearly the same as the one I already owned except for an additional 20,000 dollars. I haven't even had a moment to get my own Dragon Epic properly serviced to swap OLPFs (after their last camera, only a year ago, failed to perform to the limits Red claimed it would), yet now I'm already being asked to spend 20,000 dollars on essentially the same camera? And if I don't comply I can no longer upgrade in the future and/or the path will be even more expensive? And I only have a week or two to consider this? I don't think that's the proper way to treat a loyal consumer that has stood by you and supported you throughout each other's careers (Red's and mine together).

I'm only posting this to let Red know how I feel because I think they deserve it. I really hope they can modify their current marketing and/or sales scheme before losing more followers. As for me, I just paid the deposit for the Alexa Mini and am unsure what I'll be doing with my beloved (and soon to be prematurely outdated) Dragon Epic.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Why is there a rush to upgrade to Weapon now? There was only NAB savings for 8K upgrades I thought?

Personally, I've found Dragon to be everything RED said it'd be (especially with the swappable OLPFS).

I'd personally just stay with Dragon for now. Jarred has made it clear there may be a "third" Weapon camera released down the road, without Prores etc, that may be more affordable.

As many have said, Weapon is a new camera LINE. Like an Alexa XT. You don't have to upgrade. It's the same sensor as Epic Dragon.

I'm personally curious to see what RED announces next year for the Scarlet market. I think that may be their next move.

 

[Phil Holland]

Everybody has a right to their opinion, but don't forget that Weapon isn't the only path towards the "future".

Remember. All Dragon cameras can be upgraded in the future.

All I'm seeing from my perspective is RED launching a premiere camera line with Weapon 6K and 8K Dragon. Smaller, lighter weight, more features, access to the larger sensor, more processing power, more data bandwidth, etc....

Dragon Sensor:
- Weapon
- Epic
- Scarlet

I'm with Nick. If Weapon isn't right for you Epic Dragon has long, long lasting legs.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

Have a great time with the Alexa Mini, for what it's worth.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'm in a somewhat different position. I think it's good that RED has "pulled an ARRI" and focused on functionality and rental/large sets in this upgrade.
To me (as an owner/operator who rents very little), the 8k is the one I want, and clearly cannot afford, but I don't cease to be amazed with what I have.

2 weeks ago I said yes to a docu-type gig, and shooting 4khd at 10:1 I got great recordingtimes, and a qulity I don't know from any of the "docu" kits.
I might get a BM MicroCinema camera as a sidekick to the Drgon. Sometimes it is just too intrusive to pull up. Despite being small/light.

And I think I'll build an EF kit for some work.

But the pure flexibility of workflows around the current Epic Dragon, gives me little reason to change.
I would love prores onboard, though.

But I think that for now, rather than upgrade, focus will be to build dedicated low-end high-end setups around the Dragon.

I'll probably get the BM 5" with built in recorder (1080 monitor, prores recorder @ 500USD), an EF set (not Rokinon...) and pick up some second-hand 128 GB cards for the low end.
For the price of the upgrade, I can get a lot of kit to complement my current setup, to avoid renting small stuff.

My next big investment is probably an O'connor 2560 setup. And I can have all this for the price of an upgrade.

Then, down the line, the 8k Weapon will probably be eithin range, and is what for me is the obvious place to go, as an owner of current Epic Dragon.

If I was a rental, even the Mg Weapon would be a no-brainer to me.
I have a hard time seeing any other current camera having the flexibility of workflows and appliances than the current Dragon... Outside the 8k Weapon.



But to each his own.

Good luck!

Gunleik

 

[luigivaltulini]

As for me, I just paid the deposit for the Alexa Mini and am unsure what I'll be doing with my beloved (and soon to be prematurely outdated) Dragon Epic.

excuse me, why did you choose to buy the Mini?
What will you have more?

 

[Owen Rennie]

Dragon is amazing... Full stop!

 

[David Battistella]

Interesting way of thinking about it.

I look at it this way.

I have a mature and excllent RED dragon in my hands. Weapon has not hit the market. There is plenty of time to shoot amazing images and do great work while you figure out next steps. Why decide now whether to stay with RED or not? I guess if you figure more of your clients want to rent you because you have an Alexa mini in your hands then what you are doing might make great business sense for you, but it seems to me having an already paid for 6K dragon might be a bit more valuable "business wise" than investing in an entirely new system which is much more expensive than upgrading in 12-18 months from now.

 

[Elsie N]

Well, at the very least, going ARRI gets him off the upgrade path... unless you consider having to buy a new camera outright each time they release a new one, an upgrade path.

Logic... who needs it? '-)

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I've been a Reduser and supporter for four years and am very thankful for their previous upgrading paths. Shooting with Red has seen my clientele multiply and my skills exceed far beyond where I would have imagined them being today. Most importantly, I will forever be grateful for Red changing the game and bringing the world of professional cinema to us smaller folk in the first place.

That is why it saddens me to pack up and move on, but I see no other solution when I am being forced to spend dozens of thousands of dollars a year to keep up with their marketing. Gone are the upgrade paths that gave me true value on my camera, as now I'm offered about 75% of what I could get on the open market tomorrow for my Dragon. I was absolutely ecstatic for the Weapon release at NAB and had been saving money up for its upgrade, but its actual release saw a camera that was nearly the same as the one I already owned except for an additional 20,000 dollars. I haven't even had a moment to get my own Dragon Epic properly serviced to swap OLPFs (after their last camera, only a year ago, failed to perform to the limits Red claimed it would), yet now I'm already being asked to spend 20,000 dollars on essentially the same camera? And if I don't comply I can no longer upgrade in the future and/or the path will be even more expensive? And I only have a week or two to consider this? I don't think that's the proper way to treat a loyal consumer that has stood by you and supported you throughout each other's careers (Red's and mine together).

I'm only posting this to let Red know how I feel because I think they deserve it. I really hope they can modify their current marketing and/or sales scheme before losing more followers. As for me, I just paid the deposit for the Alexa Mini and am unsure what I'll be doing with my beloved (and soon to be prematurely outdated) Dragon Epic.

Frank,

As a true RED advocate that I have become do to the love of their products and Team, many personal friends, I am of course sad to see you abandon RED, but it saddens me most to see the reasoning behind it!!

I came form a Photography background, were I was for many years a freelancer, and didn't even care about my name of credits on magazine adds and such, but was happy to do it just for the money for more then one reason, one being that while I loved Still imagery it was never really a thru passion of mine to work for some one else's, but that love for the image taking came from the thru passion for Filmmaking, and when RED arrived I at last came to see a company that was thinking the way I wanted a company to think when it came to create a Camera for the Motion Picture acquisition, one that was also powerful enough to allow the possibility for Frame Pooling so not to let go of my Still Photography passion and not be forced to have to use multiple cameras for one or the other...

Yet the RED ONE was at the end not really the right camera for me, and that is why I have only done but couple of projects with it and none of them shot by myself, but then came the EPIC, and the insane UPGRADE path unheard of by any other company in history, I was extremely happy for both the new camera body its capabilities and the extremely generous upgrade path, now I could start truly loving the camera and also get back to do what I loved in Still photography with the same camera Ill be suing to do Motion...

Since the RED ONE and the first Upgrade Path to the EPIC MX... RED has come a long way...

As for the upgrade time frame given, RED had been giving plenty of time and still giving more, DRAGON is not going any were any time soon, and neither is the upgrade path to Weapon, as far as I can see it you now have a fantastic camera, and can continue to shoot amazing imagery with it, till a year o two form now you find yourself ready to go Weapon... Time is your friend.
What I can say of the WEAPON upgrade path is this, I understand your math and thinking, but only by the numbers in all... BUT if you stop for moment and truly calculate those numbers individually and subtract all that there is included in accessories, credits etc. then you'll see a completely different picture, and realize that here is still an INSANE amount of generosity in RED's upgrade path!!

In my strong opinion RED should also have offered a BODY ONLY upgrade path, so that that dollar number would have been so low that there would have been no way any one could have complained about...

BUT, I also see RED's point and how they approached the upgrade packages, as to offer the end user an already to shoot package from the start, still I would have offered a Body only too...

As your reasoning for the leaving RED to go to Arri, well, I see it as the worst reason to do that, as it is not only wrong in the motivation but it is also wrong as in the numbers you think are the good reason to do this.

Now if you tell me you are going to Arri for what ever other reason of better features, body size, accessories and so on which all better suit your line of work and client base, then I could argue with you in what and how one differs form the other and what one or the other offers better, but at the end of the day choices are just that, and I would respect your choice, but again, as I see it form reading your post, you are motivated in your choice for the wrong reasons...

Either way, good luck.

 

[Frank Hague]

Well, at the very least, going ARRI gets him off the upgrade path... unless you consider having to buy a new camera outright each time they release a new one, an upgrade path.

Logic... who needs it? '-)

My own logic tells me that buying one new camera every four years is more economical and less stressful than having to upgrade my camera every year, especially when I have to wait a year just for my upgrade to take place (and even then, the upgrade isn't promised to be the correct upgrade that was described when i trusted my money over in the deposit).

 

[Frank Hague]

Why is there a rush to upgrade to Weapon now? There was only NAB savings for 8K upgrades I thought?

Personally, I've found Dragon to be everything RED said it'd be (especially with the swappable OLPFS).

I'd personally just stay with Dragon for now. Jarred has made it clear there may be a "third" Weapon camera released down the road, without Prores etc, that may be more affordable.

As many have said, Weapon is a new camera LINE. Like an Alexa XT. You don't have to upgrade. It's the same sensor as Epic Dragon.

I'm personally curious to see what RED announces next year for the Scarlet market. I think that may be their next move.

Everybody has a right to their opinion, but don't forget that Weapon isn't the only path towards the "future".

Remember. All Dragon cameras can be upgraded in the future.

All I'm seeing from my perspective is RED launching a premiere camera line with Weapon 6K and 8K Dragon. Smaller, lighter weight, more features, access to the larger sensor, more processing power, more data bandwidth, etc....

Dragon Sensor:
- Weapon
- Epic
- Scarlet

I'm with Nick. If Weapon isn't right for you Epic Dragon has long, long lasting legs.

I'm in a somewhat different position. I think it's good that RED has "pulled an ARRI" and focused on functionality and rental/large sets in this upgrade.
To me (as an owner/operator who rents very little), the 8k is the one I want, and clearly cannot afford, but I don't cease to be amazed with what I have.

2 weeks ago I said yes to a docu-type gig, and shooting 4khd at 10:1 I got great recordingtimes, and a qulity I don't know from any of the "docu" kits.
I might get a BM MicroCinema camera as a sidekick to the Drgon. Sometimes it is just too intrusive to pull up. Despite being small/light.

And I think I'll build an EF kit for some work.

But the pure flexibility of workflows around the current Epic Dragon, gives me little reason to change.
I would love prores onboard, though.

But I think that for now, rather than upgrade, focus will be to build dedicated low-end high-end setups around the Dragon.

I'll probably get the BM 5" with built in recorder (1080 monitor, prores recorder @ 500USD), an EF set (not Rokinon...) and pick up some second-hand 128 GB cards for the low end.
For the price of the upgrade, I can get a lot of kit to complement my current setup, to avoid renting small stuff.

My next big investment is probably an O'connor 2560 setup. And I can have all this for the price of an upgrade.

Then, down the line, the 8k Weapon will probably be eithin range, and is what for me is the obvious place to go, as an owner of current Epic Dragon.

If I was a rental, even the Mg Weapon would be a no-brainer to me.
I have a hard time seeing any other current camera having the flexibility of workflows and appliances than the current Dragon... Outside the 8k Weapon.



But to each his own.

Good luck!

Gunleik

Frank,

As a true RED advocate that I have become do to the love of their products and Team, many personal friends, I am of course sad to see you abandon RED, but it saddens me most to see the reasoning behind it!!

I came form a Photography background, were I was for many years a freelancer, and didn't even care about my name of credits on magazine adds and such, but was happy to do it just for the money for more then one reason, one being that while I loved Still imagery it was never really a thru passion of mine to work for some one else's, but that love for the image taking came from the thru passion for Filmmaking, and when RED arrived I at last came to see a company that was thinking the way I wanted a company to think when it came to create a Camera for the Motion Picture acquisition, one that was also powerful enough to allow the possibility for Frame Pooling so not to let go of my Still Photography passion and not be forced to have to use multiple cameras for one or the other...

Yet the RED ONE was at the end not really the right camera for me, and that is why I have only done but couple of projects with it and none of them shot by myself, but then came the EPIC, and the insane UPGRADE path unheard of by any other company in history, I was extremely happy for both the new camera body its capabilities and the extremely generous upgrade path, now I could start truly loving the camera and also get back to do what I loved in Still photography with the same camera Ill be suing to do Motion...

Since the RED ONE and the first Upgrade Path to the EPIC MX... RED has come a long way...

As for the upgrade time frame given, RED had been giving plenty of time and still giving more, DRAGON is not going any were any time soon, and neither is the upgrade path to Weapon, as far as I can see it you now have a fantastic camera, and can continue to shoot amazing imagery with it, till a year o two form now you find yourself ready to go Weapon... Time is your friend.
What I can say of the WEAPON upgrade path is this, I understand your math and thinking, but only by the numbers in all... BUT if you stop for moment and truly calculate those numbers individually and subtract all that there is included in accessories, credits etc. then you'll see a completely different picture, and realize that here is still an INSANE amount of generosity in RED's upgrade path!!

In my strong opinion RED should also have offered a BODY ONLY upgrade path, so that that dollar number would have been so low that there would have been no way any one could have complained about...

BUT, I also see RED's point and how they approached the upgrade packages, as to offer the end user an already to shoot package from the start, still I would have offered a Body only too...

As your reasoning for the leaving RED to go to Arri, well, I see it as the worst reason to do that, as it is not only wrong in the motivation but it is also wrong as in the numbers you think are the good reason to do this.

Now if you tell me you are going to Arri for what ever other reason of better features, body size, accessories and so on which all better suit your line of work and client base, then I could argue with you in what and how one differs form the other and what one or the other offers better, but at the end of the day choices are just that, and I would respect your choice, but again, as I see it form reading your post, you are motivated in your choice for the wrong reasons...

Either way, good luck.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

Nick, Phil, Gunleik, Ketch, I think we all may agree on one thing: at this point the Dragon really is everything it was hyped up to be (save for the 21 stops jargon that I still can't justify). The Dragon is the best camera in the world right now, I truly believe that. The only problem is it took me a year just to have mine shipped and now it's going to take an additional month of sending my camera in just to get the features that it was originally promised to have. If Red is to uphold itself as a professional camera company used by professional filmmakers, how can they expect its professionals to go without work for a month? And why do they say they can give out loaner cameras when they've told me they can't every time I've sent in my camera? Fast forward only a few months later and now I'm being told I have a few weeks to decide whether or not I'm going to upgrade to a new (equally nebulous) camera before it becomes even more expensive?

Don't you feel that this is a bit of a bully tactic? That's how I feel, at least; bullied into jumping on board in fear of ostracization and being left at the end of the pack as the runt. At one point I was being told by my rep that I had six days to do the upgrade or the price would inflate dramatically, yet this very rep couldn't even tell me what the benefits and additions to this upgrade were.

How can we condone that kind of treatment? Even though Red changed their plan a few days later and prolonged our time to think about it to a few weeks, I felt that the damage was done and I don't trust that this kind of treatment won't continue in the future. i guess that's why the thought of doing an upgrade further down the line doesn't seem favorable or pleasant for me, it only gives me more headaches and worries that I'll have to relive the same process and again feel handcuffed to a company that has already misled me before. And who knows, if this upgrade costs 20,000 for a few XLR ports and Prores, what will the next upgrade cost when there actually are real additions to my image? (especially when those additions are merely more resolution, something I don't see any need for whatsoever)

 

[Frank Hague]

excuse me, why did you choose to buy the Mini?
What will you have more?

Have a great time with the Alexa Mini, for what it's worth.

My choice was to side with a company, not a camera. I don't want to worry about how many dozens of thousands of dollars it will cost me every year to stay relevant, let alone whether or not the upgrade is even going to actually upgrade my image.

I originally didn't mind forking out the dough because Red's previous upgrade paths were absolutely fantastic. Giving us the full purchase price for our cameras was amazing and I'm very, very grateful to this day for that. Whereas Canon was still coming out with new cameras without any value for the prior purchased ones, Red was allowing us to make affordable upgrades to stay in the family. The difference with Arri here though is that the Alexa has been around for four years and is still the most used camera in the industry. Some slight moderations have come and gone, but the Alexa is still the Alexa.

In a recent interview one of the Arri owners curtly stated that they cared too much about their customers to dilute their purchases with newer cameras every year. This was obviously an implicit jab at Red, but I trust that statement. I do not trust that Red will abstain from giving me more deadlines on upgrade paths in the very near future. Deadlines without even full knowledge of the product I'm being told to buy, mind you. That is a headache I no longer wish to have and am admittedly excited to get out of this rat race of resolution dangling carrots that don't arrive until the next upgrade is being flashed in front of my eyes.

EDIT: I should also note that the whole integrated WCU-4 focus system, the built in ND's (without losing a stop and a half from the motion mount), and of course the ProRes function swayed me to choose the Alexa Mini. These are things that will come with the Weapon in time, I'm sure; but I'd rather not wait a year and a half on back orders to receive, let alone spend the same amount in upgrades and new equipment when the same amount can get me the Mini.

Frankly, even if we're talking just about cameras and their intrinsic investment value (as opposed to the opposing companies, which is still the greater issue for me), I still think selling my entire Dragon package for 25-30K and spending 30K more on a complete Alexa Mini package is the smarter business move in itself.

 

[Elsie N]

My own logic tells me that buying one new camera every four years is more economical and less stressful than having to upgrade my camera every year, especially when I have to wait a year just for my upgrade to take place (and even then, the upgrade isn't promised to be the correct upgrade that was described when i trusted my money over in the deposit).

Obviously you've made an emotional decision. But as you maybe can tell by the responses you've received to that decision, there is a rationale that you may have discounted.

Good luck in whatever path you ultimately take.

 

[Anton Shavlik]

I'm sorry, what "few weeks" deadline?

 

[Mark Toia]

Dragon has long, long lasting legs.

Very ! I'm still not able to shoot or use its full potential.

 

[David Battistella]

Very ! I'm still not able to shoot or use its full potential.

I gotta kinda agree with this. I'm just beginning to find the grove.

 

[Brent Carter]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, rationalizations, and justifications. And that is a good thing.

Simply put, if you already have a DRAGON sensor in your camera, yes, you got a better financial deal to move from EPIC/SCARLET to WEAPON within a certain window (a window we extended due to customer request on this very forum). We could have gone the opposite route, and had no deal at all. On WEAPON upgrade or 8K upgrade. Or, heck, no upgrade path at all.

We always try to put ourselves in the shoes of the customer...within reason, of course. Jim and Jarred have preached that since the day I arrived in 2007. That is where upgrades came from. Because if they were a customer, that's what they'd want - instead of having to buy a new camera.

As I have said in the past, if these upgrade paths were easy to administrate, if they were logical, if they were easy to communicate, everyone would be doing it. We know the original RED ONE for EPIC program was a b*tch to run and for people to understand out of the gate. Same thing with EPIC/SCARLET DRAGON to WEAPON. But, at RED, we feel it is worth the effort and, at the end of the day, the customer has more flexiblity and options.

That being said, if you have DRAGON in your camera now, you are still on the upgrade path. There were benefits to locking in your upgrade earlier, of course. But I hardly think that is a bully tactic. Are car dealerships bullying you when they have a Memorial Day sale with 0% financing for a limited time?

If you want to see WEAPON out in the wild before making a choice if you need that horsepower, totally understandable.

If you want to send in your camera for the OLPF system swap, great. If not, we can send you the kit to install yourself so your camera is out of commission for minutes, not days or weeks.

WEAPON is not obsoleting EPIC/SCARLET DRAGON. Back to car analogy, think of SCARLET as a 3 series BMW. EPIC, 5 series. WEAPON, 7 series. The 7 does not make the 3 or 5 meaningless. They are different tools and different options. Go with what you need. What works for you. To extend further, there are still a ton of people happily shooting RED ONE M-X. Happily shooting EPIC and SCARLET M-X.

Frank, would love to have you continue as part of the RED family. And whatever direction you go, we respect your choice.

And let's be honest. Whether you love RED or hate RED, does anyone think there would be an Alexa Mini if there was no RED? Haha…

 

[Zeb B]

Very ! I'm still not able to shoot or use its full potential.

What's preventing you from using its full potential?

 

[Andy Roberts]

What's preventing you from using its full potential?

I think he is simply saying he hasn't yet pushed it so hard that he has maxxed out it's potential... each time shooting finding more and more he CAN do with it. He did not mean (I believe) that some limit is keeping him back. And if Mark Toia has yet to use the full potential of Dragon, then that is a LOT of potential...