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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Jumping off the Red Wagon

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Zeb B said:
Posting anything in this forum section is an invitation to be beaten by fan bois. It's like some folk think RED will sprinkle fairy dust on them if they aggressively bark down any dissent or complaints. In what form would this magic dust appear so I can look out for it? ;-)
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Or it could be they are defending the cameras they actually own, as those cameras are how they make their living. RED just enjoys collateral uplift as the maker of their tools. '-)
 
Epic Dragon just plain ROCKS, its the pinnacle of the Jim's DSMC dream, and from a demanding filmmakers perspective a true pleasure to behold.

with that said, no it is not perfect and not always the best tool for a task.

Even when the new 8K Weapon-for-the-Masses rolls out, I'll no doubt continue using the Epic Dragon for classic S35 looks.
 
Elsie N said:
Or it could be they are defending the cameras they actually own, as those cameras are how they make their living. RED just enjoys collateral uplift as the maker of their tools. '-)
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There's no positive in rabid fan boyism. Just marginalizes the forum so the top tier professions go elsewhere to gather. Exceeding market expectations through results never needs an aggressive defense.
 
The Weapon exists (still wish it had a different name) because RDC saw short comings in the general design of the Epic and wanted a better camera. They couldn't help themselves, they wanted to innovate, improve, advance and simplify. All companies do it, Apple, BMW etc. they keep making stuff better. You can't fault a company for making stuff better. Many (having been spoiled a bit by past experience ) we're disappointed because they wanted another R1 to Epic like experience and sadly some (like those posting here) want to try and punish RDC for not giving them what they hoped for. The R1 to Epic leap was huge, but with such an advance the tech curve is leveling out a bit. It was unlikely that the Epic to Weapon was going to be equally earth shattering. Weapon is just a new model with fundamental improvements in over all design and function. I'd doesn't mean the Epic Dragon is suddenly crap, it's still going to produce some of the best images in the world in the right hands.
 
I am not upgrading right now but I am excited about the Weapon.
Because the Panavised 8K Weapon with the Primo 70 lenses will be used on some big productions.
And the more big shoots use it the less discussions with producers as to why I own and use a Epic Dragon as opposed to a Alexa.
As a DP with my own camera I see no need to upgrade. (I do hope 180º rotation will come to my camera, Red One had it, and Alexa has it now).
But for a rental house it makes a lot of sense to upgrade.
 
Zeb B said:
There's no positive in rabid fan boyism. Just marginalizes the forum so the top tier professions go elsewhere to gather. Exceeding market expectations through results never needs an aggressive defense.
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And there's no "cool" factor for attacking a company just because they do not conform to one's idea of how to conduct business. Call it fanboism or whatever, but I have no hesitation to offer a counterpoint.
 
I don't think Frank deserves a "beat down" and I don't like the terminology being bandied about here. If anything, sharing why he made this choice helps RED understand their customers. Brent is in the conversation.

The suggestion that people should be beaten down for sharing an honest opinion from their personal perspective as an owner is getting very close to breaking the rules here.

Then, there is the threadjacking issue.

Consider this a warning.
 
Well, having been with Red since the beginning, and often accused of being a fanboy, I actually now find myself in the same position as Frank. I had to make a purely business decision and that was to pre-order an Alexa mini instead of upgrading to WEAPON. I truly feel resolution matters, but when it comes right down to it the industry for the most part disagrees. I have been very lucky and have had very consistent work for my R1/MX/Epic/Dragon through the years but the last 9 moths have seen that dry up almost completely. I have been using my Dragon on personal projects and a few of my clients that give me a lot of creative leeway, but I've either lost jobs or been asked to find an Alexa pretty much the rest of the time. Of course I primarily work in television so that's a factor, but economic realities are just that. I'm not planing on selling my Dragon currently because it gives me many capabilities and resolution I won't get with the Mini (and I just prefer the image) but my most profitable cameras are currently A7s's because they cut very well with the Alexa. We will have to see where the future leads but the camera market is polarizing into sub $10K vundercams and the Weapon/Alexa territory of big budget, mostly rental house serviced clients. I think Red sees this trend and is smartly adapting but it leaves the middle hanging. I love my Dragon but if nobody is willing to pay real money for it it puts me in a difficult position.
 
Evin Grant said:
Well, having been with Red since the beginning, and often accused of being a fanboy, I actually now find myself in the same position as Frank. I had to make a purely business decision and that was to pre-order an Alexa mini instead of upgrading to WEAPON. I truly feel resolution matters, but when it comes right down to it the industry for the most part disagrees. I have been very lucky and have had very consistent work for my R1/MX/Epic/Dragon through the years but the last 9 moths have seen that dry up almost completely. I have been using my Dragon on personal projects and a few of my clients that give me a lot of creative leeway, but I've either lost jobs or been asked to find an Alexa pretty much the rest of the time. Of course I primarily work in television so that's a factor, but economic realities are just that. I'm not planing on selling my Dragon currently because it gives me many capabilities and resolution I won't get with the Mini (and I just prefer the image) but my most profitable cameras are currently A7s's because they cut very well with the Alexa. We will have to see where the future leads but the camera market is polarizing into sub $10K vundercams and the Weapon/Alexa territory of big budget, mostly rental house serviced clients. I think Red sees this trend and is smartly adapting but it leaves the middle hanging. I love my Dragon but if nobody is willing to pay real money for it it puts me in a difficult position.
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Im lucky enough not to be told what camera to use. Feel sorry for you man. Sucks.
A craftsman or artist should never be told what tools ( brush ) he has to use.
Well at the end of the day, nothing is wrong with the Alexa. Is still a fine camera. Just limits you in some areas is all.
 
Zeb B said:
What's preventing you from using its full potential?
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My clients distribution requirements , TV stations and cinema chains resolution requirements prevent me from giving them the cameras full potential.

Pretty much all my clients want HD masters... some are asking for 4k and that's only about 3 people out of 100. 6k final outputs ? Nil at this time.
Capturing in 6k raw is awesome, especially for reframing, RAW grading, still pulls for billboard and magazine stock library banks etc etc etc... More ways to make money.

But kind of deflating when you no the TV stations and cinema chains are playing 1/6 the actual resolution that was shot. In 8bit to boot !
Hey its a good problem to have.

Means one good thing, my Dragons have many more years to go before the market catches up to my camera and starts demanding bigger better depth rate resolutions.
So for everyone else who has purchased a ARRI Mini (or full size Alexa) for 2x more the price of my Dragons, (Meaning I can have two cameras for the price of their one) And they can only capture resolutions of only 3.2k (RAW) or 2k colour baked Pro-res are sadly already behind the 8 ball. Technically with the same tec that goes into a $4000 dollar BLACKMAGIC camera. So these cameras have far limited life span... before having to upgrade again.

Such is life. Both are great cameras, and if some people demand ARRI over RED for hires and the client is paying for it. Who then cares. :) Again, Both are great cameras.
 
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Do you guys really know upgrade prices for Alexa? EV to ST to XT
:) Btw Arri didnt have upgrade program before Red.
I dont understand people who expect new model camera every year from Red ?
If Red offered free cameras to everyone i bet there would be people crying again in reduser.
 
Yes, I can see both sides of the coin here....

Weapon, is to me REDs first attempt at building a "true" rental/big-set cam.

R1 was targeted at owner/ops. You kinda have to be a remote controlled 3D rig to find immediate love for the Epic form-factor and contact-placements out of the box.

Prores and take 2 on the module concept, are good things.

And I know of more who have felt it more like a pressure than offer to update and haven't been too happy of that, (no matter how good the offer actually is)

so there might be a communication issue involved.

if you are renting, ARRI seems to have achieved IBM status.

Always good to remember what happened to that status when people saw through it.

Personally I'd be weary of investing in 4 year old tech, if ARRI flags that 4 years is the lifespan.

Alexas are safe bets these days though.

"Noone ever got fired for bying an IBM"
 
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Kemalettin Sert said:
Do you guys really know upgrade prices for Alexa? EV to ST to XT
:) Btw Arri didnt have upgrade program before Red.
I dont understand people who expect new model camera every year from Red ?
If Red offered free cameras to everyone i bet there would be people crying again in reduser.
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Amen.

And when ARRI announces the 6K sensor upgrade to the SXT (from what I hear the SXT will be the ONLY ARRI camera that will allow the sensor upgrade - as it was designed - like Weapon to facilitate that) for a shit ton of money - everyone will just thank them. And yes, they will make a NEW ALEXA MINI with the new sensor. So you can forget about a "upgrade path" from ALEXA MINI to the eventual 6K ALEXA MINI.
 
I wouldn't buy 4 year old technology unless it was able to pay for itself in a year of less. I upgraded my Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon instead of buying a Sony FS7. For the same amount of money I figured I got a better camera since I owned everything else I needed already. There are times if I owned both I would go for the FS7 because of ease of use and longer battery runs, not because it is a better camera, just better for that particular job.

I like Red as a company, but I choose the camera that is best for me and the work that I do.

I was taught to listen when customers complain, because it means they want to stay with you and are giving you a chance fix the problem that is driving them away. One of your complaints is that your sales person didn't know the product very well. That is never good, but sales people sell, and too often lack expertise. You also don't like having to upgrade every year, but you don't have to. The only upgrade that was mandatory to staying on the upgrade path was going from MX to Dragon, which you already did.

You also complained about the delays in deliveries of upgrades. That is frustrating and I think Red has improved there, we will see. Well not me as I am not upgrading my camera at this point.

If the Mini is the right choice for you then it is a no brainer. I would just be careful you are buying because you feel burned by Red.


Gunleik Groven said:
Yes, I can see both sides of the coin here....

Weapon, is to me REDs first attempt at building a "true" rental/big-set cam.

R1 was targeted at owner/ops. You kinda have to be a 3D rig to find immediate love for the Epic formfactor and contacts out of the box.

Prores and take2 on the module concept, are good things.

And I know of more who have felt it more like a preasure thsn offer to update and haven't been too happy of that, (no matter how good the offer actually is)

so there might be a communication issue involved.

if you are renting, Arri seems to have achieved IBM status.

Allways good to remember what happened to that status ehen people saw through it.

Personally I'd be weary of investing in 4 year old tech, if ARRI flags that 4 years is the lifespan.

Alexas are safe bets these days though.

"Noone ever got fired for bying an IBM"
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I get all of the things being presented in this thread. It's interesting to read and it's useful info. I'm sticking with RED and my dragon and Scarlett MX because I feel they are great cameras, make nice images and I have a workflow that works well for me.

I think, all things being equal, workflow gets to be a deciding factor. All the cameras make great images but some have a (whether it's true or perceived) more complicated workflow.

The knock on RED that I have always heard has been workflow and that first impression (going back to day one) was what ARRI leveraged with their Shoot>EDIT campaign because it was exactly what producers wanted to hear.

but the things I hear more now from folks (and more so since the weapon name) is the culture. Regular folks don't get it and maybe some of the producers writing the cheques aren't keen on what they see as skater/surf culture. They see it as immature more than professional.

ive always liked and appreciated the rebel branding of RED because I like the disruptive nature of the technology. But as Gunliek mentioned, it's more the IBM types that prefer to invest in the German tank.

im consistently blown away by the Dragon, but not everyone cares as much about intangibles. People are making product, they want shit to work, they want it to have a simple interface, they need rock solid continuity and zero interruptions. They write the cheques, they pick the camera.

So different from the stills world where I don't hear many clients demanding Nikon over Canon.
 
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Mark L. Pederson said:
Amen.

And when ARRI announces the 6K sensor upgrade to the SXT (from what I hear the SXT will be the ONLY ARRI camera that will allow the sensor upgrade - as it was designed - like Weapon to facilitate that) for a shit ton of money - everyone will just thank them. And yes, they will make a NEW ALEXA MINI with the new sensor. So you can forget about a "upgrade path" from ALEXA MINI to the eventual 6K ALEXA MINI.
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I'm in the Market for a new 4k camera, I already own an Alexa Plus Classic with XR. I initially reserved reserved 40K for 2015. I've been eyeing the Red Weapon. But i have to admit after the SXT announcement with upgradeable 6k sensor path, I would rather take a loan to get an SXT 6k Mini if it ever exists. I know it would be close to a 120K, but the a full Kitted rental with sticks, DJI, monitors, remote FF, cinetape, and glass would be almost 4k per day. Whats not to love. I think i'll invest in an Ursa Mini kit, a C300 MKII kit and some EF lenses. Ive never used an Epic Dragon before. I barter trade my Alexa with my buddy's Epic-X when clients request it. We all get to eat. Now before the RED Weapon was announced I made a long list of requirements which if met i would jump on the band wagon. The weapon actually ticked every box perfectly.

I understand and empathize with Frank Hague and Evin Grant, but i think Brent @ Red makes the most sense, just because we are spoilt by Red with discounted upgrade paths does not mean we get to dictate what the cost of the upgrade paths should be. No condition is permanent. Red has to make profitable decisions sometimes at the expense of it loyalty programs. The Red Dragon is an amazing camera in Resolution and DR and it continuously gets better with each color science upgrade. if you are in the camera rental market you will have to get a Red Weapon, because once its released the rental value of a Dragon will drop drastically (at least if you live in LA). if you are an owner shooter, who is hired for their talent not equipment like Mark Toia, the Dragon will give you another two years of highness mileage. You will still be a king in the music video and regional commercials market. In many countries around the world the original Red One M is still king.

My biggest problem with Red is there are still not enough trained independently certified camera repair technicians around the world to service their cameras. beyond that Red came, they saw they conquered.
 
shashbugu said:
My biggest problem with Red is there are still not enough trained independently certified camera repair technicians around the world to service their cameras. beyond that Red came, they saw they conquered.
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is this is a good point, I think REd is also working in this direction.

However Arri is preparing updrage to 6k, it will cost a lot and I think this update is very close to tell.
I'm curious to see the specifics of this sensor.
Of course if he gains a few more stops of light and colors are even better now !!!
It will be a beautiful lot with Weapon 8k.
 
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