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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Jumping off the Red Wagon

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Frank Hague said:
And the motion mount loses a stop and a half so it's basically worthless in my eyes.
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Hmmmm, so the ND you put in your matte box loses no light?
 
Zeb B said:
Owner Ops and Rental Houses have completely different buying motivations. Really RED and Arri are not direct competitors at this moment IMHO. Not sure they ever were since they have always had different business models, target customers and sales / distribution channels. Like comparing Tesla to Ford. With RED's recent move toward capital intensive gear (that suits the Rental House model) that could change over time. Not sure Arri is going to throw out the welcome mat for them and invite them inside for tea. Going to be an interesting 2016 to see who wins at this fight that has been brewing for 7 or so years.
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So who is then competitor to arri? Red changed the industry since 2006 and Arri chasing them on every level, yet you say Arri in another league? Btw Red is a born winner.Tell me where Red lost the game since the beginning.They are stepping up game every year.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
So who is then competitor to arri? Red changed the industry since 2006 and Arri chasing them on every level, yet you say Arri in another league? Btw Red is a born winner.Tell me where Red lost the game since the beginning.They are stepping up game every year.
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RED has done some amazing and great things over the last 7 years to accelerate the move to UHD. Arri has been, and still is, in another market catagory . . . like they have been for the last 100 years or so. Then there's those Dalsa dudes at the 2003 NAB that gets no respect ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalsa_Origin
 
Frank Hague said:
And the market rents the Arri sensor because most large budgeted professional DPs prefer it. That is a fact. Not saying I agree with it, but it is indeed a quantifiable fact.
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I'd like to see somebody write a learned paper on why most major feature projects are being shot on Alexa instead of Red or even Sony. At the same time, I think there's room for lots of good 4K cameras out there, provided the cameras are reliable, have a solid workflow, and have enough dynamic range to handle normal shooting conditions.
 
Marc I would love to read that paper. I'd be curious about Alexa and the current ratio in hollywood features versus others and why. I'm also kind of curious how much Panavision is still tied to the industry. If correct, prior to everything becoming Digital, Panavision was the main game for film cameras and rentals and Arri was second option correct? I'm wondering how much film is resurging into modern hollywood (no longer for distributions but becoming the choice for acquisition/filming for the studios/projects that can afford it).

I do wonder why so many use Arri and Panavision, and if more start using Red will sway more studios/DPs from these brands.
 
A huge part of this is also AC comfort, this is where Arri (and even more Panavision) have it in the bag. There's nothing wrong with the Dragon body as an owner/OP cam but most professional ACs let out an audible sigh when they hear we're shooting on it. The Weapom seems to address a bunch of the quibbles here but in terms of pure comfort level it will never be an Alexa. I mean that literally, no matter how good, or even better it is it will always NOT be an Alexa and that is what they're all used to now. That means a learning curve and more work. ACs have more influence on DPs than most perceive. Also, I keep finding that although I want more resolution, the rest of the production from producers, make-up artists and especially actors all want digital to be less sharp. Even at 1080P. This comes mostly from the added work it takes to make humans look good at higher resolutions. Quinten Tarantino and Panavsion are resurrecting a 1960s 65mm anamorphic format, including re-built 60s lenses, just to get a high resolution "soft" format. This comes from lenses with very low acutance but high MTF because of the size of the format.

It's frustrating, but with every DP I know adding diffusion, even to 1080P we may have won the battle for 4K but lost the war.
 
@ Evin.

As to the importance of keeping the AC's and workflow-people happy, that has been my main suggestion to RED since the RED One.

And that's why I am so happy to see the developments with Weapon. Finally a camera made for "normal" productions, with little time for "exploring the edges of filmmaking" or hacking setups to make it work in regular sets.

And before everyone jumps in and tells me "it does work"... Sure. I know. I know many large productions and companies that have built workflows around RED, and are happy.


But you cannot (pre weapon), "just pick up an off-the shelf RED and slip it into a standard working environment".

Modularity... Sure. But that also means that someone have to make all the parts fit, and that not two Epic bodies are the same.


I hope RED will sel a "set-ready" default weapon setup, with what is needed of risers and small gadgets to make it "fit", the camera itself and modules + prores is all right, but when it comes with either a RED, a WC, a Chinese or whatever riser and rail system, it still will be that little feeling of unfamiliarity making the AC's groan:

But hey. That's not what what "they" had.

I think AC's more than DP's have influenced the choice of Alexa over RED the last few years.

And because the Alexa is so standarized, they allow more problems, as the solutions are known.

That said, I really love what RED is approaching with Weapon!
 
As much as we are talking about cameras I really feel there are a few things that could have helped a fair bit.

1. A post integration solution that covered all platforms that is 1/4 the cost. I feel that productions did not want to have to pay for the additions of red rockets in order to have real time playback and faster edit ready media. This is especially true for television, reality, quick turnaround, high quality ego production. Just a box, with thunderbolt that when attached to Linux, macpro, MacBook, Mac mini, whatever, where ever, opens redcine x and let's you play back half res premium would be a mini revolution in itself.

2. A way to create "simple mode" in the firmware that hides all but the essential stuff and something that goes to expert mode fairly easily. So for people coming to the camera the first time just get a basic set of control.

3. Quarterly fewer updates to camera and post software silumtaneously. They have adopted this model, but only after the perceived "constant upgrading" problem was already widespread.

I think that had RED teamed up with action products early on and just offered that "feature production" add on as a purchase package, a lot of this AC problems would have disappeared.

To me, right now, I think there are too many models and tiers of customers. To many "levels" of red users are being created and personally, I don't like being labeled. I just like being a reduser and knowing my fellow redusers.

So, instead of, I have a forged, a carbon, a weapon dragon a dragon x, an epic my, a scarlet x,a scarlet dragon, an epic M, blah, blah, blah...

i think there should be two cameras.

1. A 6K weapon dragon made of magnesium with a carbon option.
2. An 8k weapon dragon made of magnesium with a carbon option.

option A should be priced in a way to unify every owner bringing the scarlet owners into the fold once and for all. I think it is bad and confusing to have all these different models flying around. I'm talking solely about optics here nothing else. Going forward I'd like to see everyone with either the 6k or the 8k and that is it. That creates the level playing field and sticks to the thing RED (to me at least) has always been about and that is being a disruptive force in the industry that does things differently. Creating these their creates more confusion. And I don't care if ARRI does it, that is precisely the reason it should be different.
 
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There are a few thing biting its ass here... And "finally prores 1080" is one of them.
As a hired hand on others productions, I am not "on a mission" for anything but the customer.
Thus making workflows work to "hide" the 6k stuff is practically what I need to do, including transcodes and mostly the RAW files won't be touched again after shooting them.
1080 prores on camera will solve that by a far cry.
RedRAW is both the strength (compressed RAW) and the weakness (needs Rocket-X or other expensive hardware to flow for real in realtime)

Then it is the AC friendlyness.
And I still think that's where RED have finally focused and should have done from the get-go. The only "One EVF port" thing has been an achilles heel to the Epic since start. Sure you can add an HD-SDI display, and we all have. But we all also know the difference in responsiveness in the "direct" socket and HD-SDI.

And I think AJA had a good lunch or two when the KiPro-mini was released, buggy as it was, it solved a real isue with the Epic for larger scale productions.

I know Scarlet could've swooped out the 30+ C300's one of my partners bought (it is a much better camera on all levels) if it only recorded to a quick turnaround format. At least: too.

RED is on a mission. But I think that since the Epic, RED has kinda not really fought against industry acceptance, but more against quirky solutions.

RED had the cinema market and the Alexa was in many ways sub-par when released (it is great now), but checked the workflow and AC boxes which really have been important.

For owner/ops, these things are not of huge significance.

For rentals and larger sets, it's kinda of the main questions.

And I am infinitely happy that have adressed these issues with Weapon.

Still, it's a fact that one of my main partners and 100% RED users for big-drama since 2008, opt for a 9 month Alexa rental over going weapon for their next large production, and that's all mostly due to the above.

G
 
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I've been wondering about the costs making a Forged chasis vs CF or even Magnesium.

Magnesium = established tooling. Considerable man-time cost PER camera body (low grinding speed) + Assembly + Waste

CF = established tooling. Highly skilled operators. High man-time PER camera body + Assembly.

Forged = New tooling. Cost per Oven load. (speculating) Lowish per body cast pouring. Long Baking Process of Batch.

... would there be a tipping point where more ovens would mean Forged is the lowest cost process for RED?

AJ
 
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Personally I will stick with my Dragon the next few years in its current state. No upgrade planned, I have other things in my equation that are equally relevant or more and also pretty costly, e.g. grading up my postproduction eco-system to AD Flame.

Currently the Red Dragon covers my type of work well (TVCs, documentaries, corporate video). And to be honest, with Dragon and Alexa the industry passed 35mm by quite a step. So I'm pretty confident that even in 5 years Dragon will be sufficient for all the work I will face - it even covers upcoming 4k well. In cinema-land Arri is the 90% dominator like they were before 2008 (the year 35mm died). There is nothing Red can do about, too deep are Arri's roots, too good and reliable the products, too well designed for this particular market.

Red knows this and is with Weapon 8k now aiming at the high-end stills market which is not a small niche market but a huge world-wide industry. Weapon 8K does not make much sense for me, my work, my lenses and the lenses I can rent elsewhere, its a new field that needs to be farmed creatively. I don't have the budget and time and most importantly the jobs. Others do, and I'm exited how things will evolve.

Ok. I fully understand the original poster and his move to Arri. If I were in the rental business I would have left the Rad Waggon a year ago. I'm not renting out my stuff, but I went with all the upgrades Red offered and happily enjoyed Red's generosity that now has with Dragon 8k an end which I fully understand.

I the moment my dragon sensor shows a white, vertical, and thin line on the right side of the picture that pops up when a white, bright object is in the picture. This is the third sensor that needs to be replaced in the last 7 years I own a Red camera. I'm not saying that Red cameras are particular fragile ore prone to break but they are not the hardcore workhorses people need in every day TV land. There is a reason why Ultra Primes still sell like hot cakes, they are hardly to break. Same counts for Arri cameras. For many the Ks don't matter much.


Hans
 
Gunleik Groven said:
There are a few thing biting its ass here...
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I will add to this list: lack of support for LDS metadata and lack of sufficient power for Fujinon Cabrio lenses are two other glaring omissions.

In the business world its usually not fair to blame another company for one's own challenges, but clearly RED bet heavily on Apple maintaining and enhancing a competitive computing platform for their RAW workflow. When Apple changed the form factor for the Mac Pro from a modular PCIe tower to a monolithic trash can, that all went out the window. RED knew this was coming before DRAGON came out, but it could not change tracks. The Rocket-X cards went from being an inconvenience to an outright kludge, requiring either an expensive thunderbolt adapter to deliver sub-par performance, a shift to Windows (a sub-par OS platform), or continued use of old Mac Pros that have no future. Had Apple pursued a different platform direction, it might have validated, rather than repudiated, RED's workflow strategies and assumptions. As it stands today, Weapon doesn't have a good story for those who want to quickly and easily shoot 4K in S35 format and edit on a new Mac Pro. Which is slightly unbelievable.

In terms of "nice-to-haves" that didn't seem to make the list, I was holding out hope that Weapon would support recording to multiple cards at the same time. That would provide ample bandwidth for recording 4K ProRes to a second card and/or provide a way to recording A- and X- tracks at better REDCODE rates than recording both to a single card.
 
OR.

A thunderbolt REDpostBOX that doesn't cost the price of a used RED camera to do the heavy lifting an R3D file require. R3D is a compressed, processor intensive format which requires MASSIVE amounts of computing power/fast media and GPU to perform in real time at full resolution. Prores does not.

To me the sensors might be equal BUT (and I am not talking about me in my very happy 4K workflow world where everything has had a 4K finish for the past 7 years) the post workflow still is not.

I like the DSMC system and I like that the DRAGON sensor makes this a super powerful Multi purpose camera. More that direction, less worry about Features market.
 
I guess it's also a question of volume. If you got a Rocket-X with each Epic purchase, (but that's probably a bit late, even if it was possible), it would have made a difference.

I love the DMSC concept too, but then I am just small-me.
In studio/rental-me I kinda saw the other sides of that coin.
 
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