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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

James Mathers (Digital Cinema Society): RED Epic for Sale? Interesting article.

The most worrying thing to me in James article is he has an Epic M serial number 30, ordered upgrade at NAB and still hasn't been upgraded. I completely understand his frustration... His point about the increasing sensor sizes is something I also agree on. Sure, some people want larger sensors, but at least make them standard sizes. Most of the cinema glass doesn't cover 6Kff. I know some will say but you can window down, yada yada. Then my response is what is the point of a 6Kff sensor... Why not a 6K s35 size sensor? The other camera manufacturers don't have trouble making their sensors standard sizes. James makes a lot of valid arguments... Lens options go way down the larger the sensor gets, something I'm worried about for the future.
 
Red has always been terribly unreliable when it comes to delivery dates. But then you get what you pay for. For it's specs the Epic is a bargain.

People get annoyed by the delays. For me as a writer, director, and occasional cameraman when I shoot one of my projects Red has replaced my S16 Arri, and the 35mm rental packages very well. Since Epic MX I don't look back any more. I know that missing delivery targets is Red's nature. One has to deal with it or leave it. The MX sensor works well for me. So will Dragon. And if the upgrade will be in 2015 I don't care much.

This is different for others, especially if renting gear is the main business. Talking to rental companies often brings things back to perspective: Arri never gives any discount and is all but a bargain. In the past Sony brought very expensive cameras to the market such as F23, F3 or now the F65 which had a considerable short live-span and made it difficult for the rental companis to achieve a meaningful ROI.

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Sensor size. It's my non-prooved and wild guess that, in opposite to Arri's sensors which are exclusively developed in collaboration with Frauenhofer Institut, Red's sensors are not made exclusively for Red in a sense that they are probably a derivative from existing sensor typ that find their primarily use elsewhere. Otherwise I don't understand the funky pixel array format of roughly 2:1. For the use in a cinema camera a full gate S-35 4:3 sensor with 5k would be much more meaningful than a 2:1 sensor with 6k that does not fit well with common S-35 glas.

Personally I shoot all my stuff in 4KHD. With Dragon I will switch to 5KHD.

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James Mather's rant is a mixture of understandable annoyance regarding Red's delivery dates, dependability etc... and the fact that the industry is moving quickly in a not so comfortable direction where industry veterans tend to face head wind that hasn't been there 10 years ago. Nowadays everybody is a DP and S-35 productions can be shot for nil. Does that lead to bad films? No. But it makes it harder to earn a living in the medium level world where producers dictate the typ of camera and your own camera package will compete against DSLRs.

Hans
 
Matt Ryan said:
The most worrying thing to me in James article is he has an Epic M serial number 30, ordered upgrade at NAB and still hasn't been upgraded....
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Matt, just a quick clarification, James said his RedONE was SN 30, not the Epic M.

Phil
 
I think most people forget what makes the prices of RED. It's not only the 4K+ image or the high speed, you pay also for their RAW. Wich I think cost RED years to develop and create.
I'm a young dude from amsterdam, and 4 years ago I came in contact with a RED One on a shoot at a company where I did free work to learn how to film. I didn't touched the thing but it was clear for me what it was and can do. After that day I was saving to buy my own someday. Last december that day came, and after that day I was buried in work! 4 months later, my epic upgrade is going on and I can't imagine what whil happen from the day my epic comes in.

It was the best decision in my life to start saving that day. No film school, no rich parents, just a drive and a company that sells awesome stuff for a fair price, wich if you are willing to work hard, you can afford.
 
Phil Bates said:
Matt, just a quick clarification, James said his RedONE was SN 30, not the Epic M.

Phil
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ah, my bad. Assumed his serial number stuck for the M.
 
serial numbers, really myopic. His point is getting lost...I believe his point is well taken that the roll-out of Dragon is a disaster!! and leaves alot to be desired, that a compny that is in a habit of these things no longer deserves his Loyalty!!!
 
sergio arguello said:
I believe his point is well taken that the roll-out of Dragon is a disaster!! and leaves alot to be desired, that a compny that is in a habit of these things no longer deserves his Loyalty!!!
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That...about...sums....it...up. Yep.
 
The sad part to me is my first introduction to the RED One was from James. He invited me to his set to check it out and let me play with it. He's the reason I started shooting RED and what led me to Reduser. If anyone deserved an early Dragon, it should have been the head of the Digital Cinema Society who was one of their first customers and long time supporter.
 
Matt Ryan said:
The sad part to me is my first introduction to the RED One was from James. He invited me to his set to check it out and let me play with it. He's the reason I started shooting RED and what led me to Reduser. If anyone deserved an early Dragon, it should have been the head of the Digital Cinema Society who was one of their first customers and long time supporter.
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That's an understandable emotion and relative perspective.

I don't know James, but if he's got the cash ready to go to Dragon I would recommend to him to wait until the NAB dust settles to make his actual decision. That's my personal advice to an individual if they were thinking about selling an Epic with MX or to stay on target for Dragon. Dragon strengthened my investment in Red in my mind, he might feel the same when it comes to image quality. Though he might not. That's all up to him. I can't fathom anybody with an Epic with Mysterium-X not wanting to pay the upgrade price to get the improved technology and better image quality.

It is important to remember that every camera out there with the Old OLPF/Calibration will need to be sent back to Red. I've seen a good bit of the new tech shipped out so that's happening, but personally the camera he truly would want is the one that is shipping now.

And very soon it's about to get even better.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Phil - I just copied your post and pasted into a document on my desktop so I could keep it close at hand. Most of my indie work in the last few years has been "friends" and friends of friends, all wanting stuff for, essentially, free. It has been tough of late as I have been saying "NO" and haver to retrain folks to expect to have to pay. I continue to admire what you are doing all around.

:thumbsup:
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Cheers Terry. Saying no, and in this particular case, to you closest friends is damn near the hardest thing to do. Sometimes it can make sense if there's a plan, you could come on as Producer maybe setup some sort of back end recoup on time and expenses. However, just to go out and shoot for a week or two with no clear plan isn't exactly ideal if there's no compensation. My investment has cost me a good chunk of money which makes sense with the more paying work I bring in. This is something I looked at very hard when I went to this stage of my current business plan.

Funny thing for my particular case. The glass was actually the harder decision than the camera. That took me several years and then three months of fishing before I made a decision.


Scott Crawley said:
You Phil are a responsible steward of the industry.
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Thanks Scott! That's totally going on my next business card :)
 
D Anderson said:
I keep finding you too. Funny that...a public forum.
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I guess I mean you don't seem particularly happy with RED. I didn't mean to be rude, and I apologize if I come off that way. But I am curious as to why you feel how you do.

I'm an unabashed RED apologist (RED has made a big impact on my career). But I'm always curious when others feel differently.
 
The NAB show last year was not such good show from RED, I think all involved can agree. But it's easy to understand red had high hopes to get dragon out for last NAB and their plan was to actually upgrade cameras on site... Well things took longer, those things are difficult to judge, especially as RED has to meet a preset price for dragon and dragon upgrades. When things starts to take longer well then it's getting tighter economically. Possibly thats one good reason for carbon to exist and dragon upgrades goes slow. Other companies have folded under similar situations. So possibly this guy should be a bit more positive, at least he got in the right line, just saying, he could have chosen to get in line for a Penelope Dalsa instead of dragon.

Regarding the sensor size, bigger makes a lot of sense, very few lenses beats actual resolution of the dragon sensor when shooting 5k (i would even say I have not seen such lenses even), and getting a bigger sensor then MX with higher pixel count (6k) is fantastic. Still lenses holds up for 6k, to me that is a good enough excuse to have it in the camera. Dragon score higher than even the best still cameras in that important test, remember. And that was a test where they did not take HDRx, ADD or a new OLPF into account. Also if your expansive cine lenses does not do the job, crop in on the sensor, at 5,5k most will cover and you then, to me at least still have the best camera available to date with a dragon. I mean what photographer / DP does not want a larger array if the pixel density allready is far higher than any competition...?

Any way this guy clearly does not want a bigger sensor and when I'm reading between the lines I understand he is a bit pissed as he does not get a dragon early as he has all his great merits and fancy letter combo title and all. And he then goes and writes an article / newsletter about it, and in his writing he also kind of claims that red ruined his carrier... He owned a red, the producers did not want it etc, etc. Well, why on earth did he not just go and buy on or all of the other top of the line cameras? Well, I almost thinks that he did not have the funds for it, so why is he blaming the one camera that he could actually afford.

If I was RED I would actually refuse him service, That would be one dragon upgrade less they had to make. I do not think the gain of selling him the upgrade can be that much , 9000USD to start with, then minus the shipping and labour of actually putting it in and the extra costs the years of delays must have cost. And making dragon sensors can not be cheap, 9000 USD is not much... if others could do it for that price they would, sony would probably love to sell their cameras with more pixels and DR than dragon and of a lower price. Sony is a big company and well, they did not succeed in that task. So RED's gain from doing these upgrades for the preset price can not be much. So if I was RED I would say he could go and buy a Penelope instead. Also I heard it would have all sorts of smart formats and such when shipping....

But I agree with him, All DP's should think twice before they invest in gear. Owning makes you bias, and the clients sees it. It will sting them. Even when you give them a great deal for you and your camera they very often have a great difficulty judge that, when you charge them for your lenses, your camera, your tripod, lights etc.... Then even if they all where the best of it's kind the clients will think twice about it and wonder if you are that great consultant (which is actually what the profession of being a DP is) or if you are just a great salesman that got your foot in their door to sell them the best vacuum cleaner ever, that also happens to be the one that you can offer them... usually that bell does not ring to well.
 
D Anderson said:
RED has botched the Dragon roll out so badly.
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Nick Morrison said:
Mr. Anderson, I keep finding you so many threads! One day RED will do something you like!
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Mr. (Or Ms.) Anderson, you seem to have quite an agenda here on RU with all your recent negative posts. Just curious, do you actually own a RED camera? If so, I guess you have earned the right to express your opinion...if not, you have no skin in the game, and might want to consider listening more than you speak. Didn't anyone ever tell you that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.
 
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