James Mathers (Digital Cinema Society): RED Epic for Sale? Interesting article.

[D Anderson]

Mr. (Or Ms.) Anderson, you seem to have quite an agenda here on RU with all your recent negative posts. Just curious, do you actually own a RED camera? If so, I guess you have earned the right to express your opinion...if not, you have no skin in the game, and might want to consider listening more than you speak. Didn't anyone ever tell you that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.

Yes I do have skin in this game. Am I now permitted to speak?

I can see when RED does good and I can see when RED screws the pooch. There has been a lot of pooch screwing going on recently. And to my disbelief a lot of REDUSERS apologizing for this. Giving RED a TOTAL free pass and even finding the need to praise RED in threads like Daniels recent redmag disaster.

RED doesn't need free passes - they need kept on their toes to improve.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Mr. DA - what you seem to fail to understand is that there is really a legitimate POV that differs from yours. Some of us really don't believe the pooch has been screwed. (Or even the cat.) We like the dialog that goes on and understand the delays and the changes in mid-stream. Is it not OK with you for us to have that sort of understanding with RED? If you want to grouse and complain, go ahead, just don't expect some of us to sit by and agree with you. We will continue to challenge the premise you are woking from. Simple as that.

 

[D Anderson]

Mr. (Or Ms.) Anderson, you seem to .....

BTW I requested a name change - but I deleted the request from the username thread after it went ignored for months.

Do I own a camera and what is your name? Show me your papers? [Snap heels]. Cumon.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

BTW I requested a name change - but I deleted the request from the username thread after it went ignored for months.

Do I own a camera and what is your name? Show me your papers? [Snap heels]. Cumon.

You say you have skin in the game but you don't actually say you own a camera. LOL

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Mr. DA - what you seem to fail to understand is that there is really a legitimate POV that differs from yours. Some of us really don't believe the pooch has been screwed. (Or even the cat.) We like the dialog that goes on and understand the delays and the changes in mid-stream. Is it not OK with you for us to have that sort of understanding with RED? If you want to grouse and complain, go ahead, just don't expect some of us to sit by and agree with you. We will continue to challenge the premise you are woking from. Simple as that.

+1. Well stated, Terry! My own career has been immeasurably enhanced by my experiences with RED products, personnel, and industry outreach (REDucation, etc.) over the last 5 years. Call me a RED apologist or fanboy if you will...I prefer to think that RED is not perfect (none of us are), and is entitled to some patience, tolerance and grace as they mature. If what they are doing was so easy, everyone from Sony to Canon to ARRI would already be doing it. After only 7 years, they have enabled thousands of us to have access to cinema tools most of us only dreamed of. And they now make a couple of the 5 or 6 best cameras on the planet. Pretty impressive for a company that is barely beyond a start-up!

 

[Zeb B]

Stop feeding the troll

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Stop feeding the troll

Sadly, there is wisdom in this.

 

[D Anderson]

You say you have skin in the game but you don't actually say you own a camera. LOL

You sound like a bitter man - read back - I bought the set of BT RED glass around 3 months ago. I own an Epic. You are Soooooooooo focused on being in RED defense mode you end up being rude. Do better.

 

[Nick Morrison]

+1. Well stated, Terry! My own career has been immeasurably enhanced by my experiences with RED products, personnel, and industry outreach (REDucation, etc.) over the last 5 years. Call me a RED apologist or fanboy if you will...I prefer to think that RED is not perfect (none of us are), and is entitled to some patience, tolerance and grace as they mature. If what they are doing was so easy, everyone from Sony to Canon to ARRI would already be doing it. After only 7 years, they have enabled thousands of us to have access to cinema tools most of us only dreamed of. And they now make a couple of the 5 or 6 best cameras on the planet. Pretty impressive fora company that is barely beyond a start-up!

Agreed. I started in DSLR. Got into RED, and my clients followed....with bigger budgets and better opportunities. Can't thank RED enough.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Yes I do have skin in this game.

Glad to hear it. Sorry you are so unhappy and bitter about the experience.

 

[D Anderson]

Glad to hear it. Sorry you are so unhappy and bitter about the experience.

Tom, I`m not bitter- but at the same time I cant give RED a free pass when they screw up. Some guys here cant handle a bad word about RED. Fair enough, but I cant let gushing praise be dumped by the bucket load in threads like Daniels recent Redmag disaster thread go unbalanced.

 

[sergio arguello]

Ive owned more cameras than this whole thread combined and id say what mr Anderson points out is legitimate. Why should we not expect a real level of responsibility and quality for the monies we all have spent with this or any other company. The fiasco with losing data on a card is unexeptable!!
Epics coming out of QC dead as doornails is un exceptable...Dragons going to classroom pets is unexceptable...Dragons not rolling out on timetables givin by the heads of the company is whatever it is...so on and so on.

 

[Phil Holland]

Tom, I`m not bitter- but at the same time I cant give RED a free pass when they screw up.

One thing as I'm on both side of this equation and try to provide constructive helpful criticism when possible, hence all the aggressive testing I do and share with Redusers and shooters abroad.

Red has come out in the past and discussed some of the difficulties and delays about bringing various products to the market. We have the Founder, President, and various other members from the Red Team in direct 1:1 communication with us via this forum. Something you don't get anywhere else. Sometimes a bit brash. Sometimes a bit candid. However, this communication is important to help better the Red experience from a shooter and owner perspective and that's something I can respect.

However, more recently Jarred has mentioned that talking about new products early on in their development has "bitten them" in the past. Also, delays in things like sensor manufacturing, QC, and yield suck. Red these days has been much more quiet about new developments. I think this NAB we'll actually see things that we've never technically seen here before because of this mindset.

This new way of communication when further along in development is going to be a good and bad thing for us. Scarlet comes to mind where the larger target market hungered for a larger sensor and 4K compared to what the smaller market desired from a smaller sensor and oddly smaller resolution capture device. Looking back at the history of how this all went down and where UHD is right at this moment showcases just why making Scarlet-X MX a 4K S35-ish camera was a wise decision. Right now Red has cameras from 2007, 2010, 2011, and 2013 that are all ready for the ride of 4K+. That was smart.

Criticize them yes, but do respect their clarity. If anything the speed to the OLPF fix and new Calibration on Dragon shows how hard they are working to make Dragon great.

 

[Nick Morrison]

One thing as I'm on both side of this equation and try to provide constructive helpful criticism when possible, hence all the aggressive testing I do and share with Redusers and shooters abroad.

Red has come out in the past and discussed some of the difficulties and delays about bringing various products to the market. We have the Founder, President, and various other members from the Red Team in direct 1:1 communication with us via this forum. Something you don't get anywhere else. Sometimes a bit brash. Sometimes a bit candid. However, this communication is important to help better the Red experience from a shooter and owner perspective and that's something I can respect.

However, more recently Jarred has mentioned that talking about new products early on in their development has "bitten them" in the past. Also, delays in things like sensor manufacturing, QC, and yield suck. Red these days has been much more quiet about new developments. I think this NAB we'll actually see things that we've never technically seen here before because of this mindset.

This new way of communication when further along in development is going to be a good and bad thing for us. Scarlet comes to mind where the larger target market hungered for a larger sensor and 4K compared to what the smaller market desired from a smaller sensor and oddly smaller resolution capture device. Looking back at the history of how this all went down and where UHD is right at this moment showcases just why making Scarlet-X MX a 4K S35-ish camera was a wise decision. Right now Red has cameras from 2007, 2010, 2011, and 2013 that are all ready for the ride of 4K+. That was smart.

Criticize them yes, but do respect their clarity. If anything the speed to the OLPF fix and new Calibration on Dragon shows how hard they are working to make Dragon great.

Phil, always the voice of reason. Thanks.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

… Any way this guy clearly does not want a bigger sensor and when I'm reading between the lines I understand he is a bit pissed as he does not get a dragon early as he has all his great merits and fancy letter combo title and all. And he then goes and writes an article / newsletter about it, and in his writing he also kind of claims that red ruined his carrier... He owned a red, the producers did not want it etc, etc. Well, why on earth did he not just go and buy on or all of the other top of the line cameras? Well, I almost thinks that he did not have the funds for it, so why is he blaming the one camera that he could actually afford.

If I was RED I would actually refuse him service, That would be one dragon upgrade less they had to make. I do not think the gain of selling him the upgrade can be that much , 9000USD to start with, then minus the shipping and labour of actually putting it in and the extra costs the years of delays must have cost. And making dragon sensors can not be cheap, 9000 USD is not much... if others could do it for that price they would, sony would probably love to sell their cameras with more pixels and DR than dragon and of a lower price. Sony is a big company and well, they did not succeed in that task. So RED's gain from doing these upgrades for the preset price can not be much. So if I was RED I would say he could go and buy a Penelope instead. Also I heard it would have all sorts of smart formats and such when shipping....

Bjorn,
I'm quite surprised with the words you chose. You obviously don't know James and yet you are acting as a judge and jury from far beyond the sidelines.

James started the Digital Cinema Society not to enrich himself, but to benefit the community of filmmakers that we are. He loves the art and has always been willing to share his knowledge, document and publish new technologies and organize events to enrich our industry. He's low-key and an exceptional person with true commitment to making what we all do better.
To lambast his credits or depreciate his accomplishments exposes a mean streak that I never expected. James has been posting his comments for years - many of them endorsing RED and the impact Jim and his team have brought to the industry. He has been one of our champions from the start.
If you had ever read his commentary over the years, then you could have used that context in understanding his latest post.

That approach demonstrates wisdom.

Commenting from ignorance is best left to trolls. Don't tarnish your own reputation by joining their ranks.

After all, if all you do is read between the lines, you're looking at a blank page.

James brought up interesting perspectives - even if you don't agree with him, they are viewpoints worthy of respect. He has earned that much.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

RED is never going to be able to make everyone happy. That's pretty obvious. I think they have and are pushing the industry forward on an unprecedented pace, but competitors are finally catching up. RED has listened to its costumers may times, but chose to ignore others, ProRes module comes to mind.
They have garnered praise and criticism and probably both well deserved.
The part that is really bugging me lately is QC and reliability. And I'm not just talking about my mag failure. I'm talking about the other failures I have had in the last few years. I had the SDI port on a Scarlet fail, my (then) 3 month old EPIC act crazy and not shut down among other things, the mag dead and now I have an HDMI port that is not working. I'm not rough with my gear. I take good care of it and just attach and detach peripherals on the brain. Why so many issues?
In my 19 years in the film/TV business I have only had 1 camera fail on a shoot. A Sony 700. Other than that I have used film cameras and digital cameras day in and day out on several seasons of TV shows, features, commercials and so on, and never has a camera had issues in my hands. Before that I was a sound engineer and worked with analog tape and saw the digital revolution with the 1st generation of multitrack digital recorders (Adat), and they never failed me either.
This constant Beta cycle needs to stop. I would love to have a fully reliable camera, even if that meant it could do less...

 

[Mark Pedersen]

Bjorn,
I'm quite surprised with the words you chose. You obviously don't know James and yet you are acting as a judge and jury from far beyond the sidelines.

James started the Digital Cinema Society not to enrich himself, but to benefit the community of filmmakers that we are. He loves the art and has always been willing to share his knowledge, document and publish new technologies and organize events to enrich our industry. He's low-key and an exceptional person with true commitment to making what we all do better.
To lambast his credits or depreciate his accomplishments exposes a mean streak that I never expected. James has been posting his comments for years - many of them endorsing RED and the impact Jim and his team have brought to the industry. He has been one of our champions from the start.
If you had ever read his commentary over the years, then you could have used that context in understanding his latest post.

That approach demonstrates wisdom.

Commenting from ignorance is best left to trolls. Don't tarnish your own reputation by joining their ranks.

After all, if all you do is read between the lines, you're looking at a blank page.

James brought up interesting perspectives - even if you don't agree with him, they are viewpoints worthy of respect. He has earned that much.

Here here!

James is a consummate professional with decades of experience who posted a well-considered, sincere post. He shared his feelings and perspective. And that deserves respect.

This thread is getting way too nasty gentlemen.

M

 

[Matt Ryan]

Lets wring this in a bit and stay on topic. People are allowed to have opinions. Let's keep it focused on James Mathers post and constructive ways RED can improve the perception not just to him but to the entire industry. I'm a big fan of his and he is an extremely generous man. Back on topic, take your arguments to PM's please.

You may not agree with his entire post, so lets compare and contrast without jumping on one another.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

You sound like a bitter man - read back - I bought the set of BT RED glass around 3 months ago. I own an Epic. You are Soooooooooo focused on being in RED defense mode you end up being rude. Do better.

I'm the bitter one. Hmmm. Really. :lol:

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

For example, the last time I used the Epic it was for a corporate shoot with very quick turnaround where the client wanted to walk away with HD ProRes 4:4:4 by the end of wrap. A number of fine cameras could have accomplished this, but I needed to hire at my expense a RED Rocket accelerated on-set transcoding solution and a DIT/Colorist in order to stay competitive and keep the job. It ended up looking great, and everyone was happy, but as a businessman, I need to be aware of how these accommodations impact my bottom line.

I am going to leave the bickering to others and just emphasize this paragraph. And say to RED, this is a great summary of many core frustrations shared by RED owners. With all your vision, you missed something cruxy in the defense of RAW - the desire and need for editing proxies and for faster, inexpensive turnarounds.

It's not too late to invent that module which can replace the need for a Rocket and a DIT/colorist. Now, as things like the C500/Aja Quad recorder - or the Blackmagic 4K camera - bring this utility to its users - I think it is time to re-think your dismissal of these modules.

I desperately DON'T want to buy another Rocket, not after having a $3000 piece of equipment fail after only one year. I would much rather have a more robust module which gives me ProRes 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 options, up to 4K. I would like to have proxies and fast turnaround.

Thank you for listening. We now return to our regularly scheduled program, The Bickersons....