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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Its official - Black Magic 4k Cinema Camera

Jeff Kilgroe said:
It's not a bad racket... I make a heck of a lot more as a consultant than a shooter.

As for this 4K BMCC... Saw it, touched it, felt it, etc... Compared to Scarlet, and especially EPIC, it's a toy. OTOH, this is the new "prosumer" and 4K production is about to get very real and there's a definite place in the market for this. IMO, it fits in the market in a comfortable niche right below RED's offerings. For a lot of people this would be plenty of camera.

The pocket camera is cool. I wish it were 2.7K or 3K though. I noticed that by the end of the day the thing was hot enough to fry an egg, kinda like how the SONY NEX-5 series overheats, lol. IMO, it's no better than any of the other new MFT cameras hitting the market, like the GF6. What sets it apart is that its primary function is shooting video, not stills and the formats it will record to. If you still intend to shoot a a fair amount of stills along with your motion, it may not be your best option. ...I'm considering it, but I'm waiting for finalized and detailed specs. So far it's a bit vauge and it was difficult to play with anything other than aiming and focusing the thing because of the constant mob of people trying to get their hands on it.

A few of us at the show were getting the impression that the pocket camera was almost being crippled somewhat so as to not encroach onto the current BMCC's space. IMO, the current BMCC camera, which is only now finally starting to really ship out to people, and is still riddled with issues, is somewhat of a misfit product. IMO, they should do away with it and offer the few customers who've received it a trade-in toward the new 4K model when it ships. Kinda like another company I know of would do... just sayin'
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Yep, my thoughts too. Thought they would scrap the camera and go 4k, 4k s35 is just over kill though, s16-4/3rds is the range (2/3rds for video). You could probably program a number of 4/3rds cameras to output 4k over HDMI for recording. Its a sham.

The pocket camera should at least HDMI p50, so you can use the next shuttle to record, even by wifi video standards. The camera should have been at least uhd/4k stills and HDMI 4k recording. Aptina makes the Nikon J1 s16 sensor that can do 4k video. This camera is like a shuttle with monitor, buttons and sensor etc, $500 camera, even $300 (I know that the sensor used probably is too expensive compared to 4/3rds cheap ones for this to happen). For a $1k they could have had h264 aswell and 4k stills sensor, and use it first everything low end. Let's be realistic. BMD is giving life to Red, giving them time to come down with a crunchingly priced product above them.
 
Björn Benckert said:
I guess it comes down to trust.
As for me I trust the fact that when we bought an epic M early we had the money back long before the epic X came out... I think now, as we ordered the dragon sensor upgrade a few seconds after they where available in the web shop we will probably have that money in return on rentals before most people even have got their dragons.
And when the Dragons are out I think an epic MX will rent about as good / bad as a scarlet does today. So if you ask me I think it comes down to the fact that you need to have the top dog to stay in the rental game. Simply, getting it late is bad for business.
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Still brave as if they are upgrades those cameras need some firmware to work.....

Edit: I have a feeling Epic-X rates and rentability will be squezzed from both ends. Epic-Ds will take the top end epic market and the Scarlet-D makes up a lot of the deficiencies of the Scarlet-X against the Epic-X and feels in many ways a closer camera to the Epic-D than the Scarlet-X was to the Epic-X.
 
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Jeff Kilgroe said:
As for this 4K BMCC... Saw it, touched it, felt it, etc... Compared to Scarlet, and especially EPIC, it's a toy. OTOH, this is the new "prosumer" and 4K production is about to get very real and there's a definite place in the market for this. IMO, it fits in the market in a comfortable niche right below RED's offerings. For a lot of people this would be plenty of camera.
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What is it about the BMPC4k that makes you feel it's a toy? Genuine curiosity, not a challenge to your post.

I've been a big fan of RED for a long time, and I love shooting with RED. I'm not trying to compare Scarlet/EPIC and the BMPC4k from a religious point of view, but from a technical perspective. By my observations, it looks like the specs of the BMPC4k puts it squarely between the Red One M and the Red One MX in terms of image quality. You are missing framerates with the BMPC4k, but in terms of 24fps narrative work, the specs look right on the money. Am I missing something? Was the Red One M a toy?

The BMPC4k is little more than specs on a page right now, but when you compare the potential output of this camera with film release prints, shouldn't you be able to produce image quality that would be great for theatrical distribution? It doesn't have the dynamic range of of the MX sensor, but then again, neither did the Mysterium sensor.

4K, 12 stops of dynamic range, S35, RAW... what makes it a toy? Did I miss something in the announcements?
 
Jared Caldwell said:
What is it about the BMPC4k that makes you feel it's a toy? Genuine curiosity, not a challenge to your post.

I've been a big fan of RED for a long time, and I love shooting with RED. I'm not trying to compare Scarlet/EPIC and the BMPC4k from a religious point of view, but from a technical perspective. By my observations, it looks like the specs of the BMPC4k puts it squarely between the Red One M and the Red One MX in terms of image quality. You are missing framerates with the BMPC4k, but in terms of 24fps narrative work, the specs look right on the money. Am I missing something? Was the Red One M a toy?

The BMPC4k is little more than specs on a page right now, but when you compare the potential output of this camera with film release prints, shouldn't you be able to produce image quality that would be great for theatrical distribution? It doesn't have the dynamic range of of the MX sensor, but then again, neither did the Mysterium sensor.

4K, 12 stops of dynamic range, S35, RAW... what makes it a toy? Did I miss something in the announcements?
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Not handled the BMCC but I suspect build quality pays some part into this equation. Certainly the quote you've made of Jeff's description suggests this. It also fits with my experience of handling various DSLRs; move up in the DSLR food chain from the bottom to the top and while the features and tech spec do go up, one of the most noticeable is the build quality.

REDs are built like tanks (especially the RED One) and while the BMD kit I've got is much better than most amateur aimed kit its not sitting there giving off the impression that it would be fine taking the odd stray round like my scarlet does (I treat it like its made of really thin china, but its built for more).
 
I asked the BM sales guy at NAB what an hour of RAW 4K footage required in the way of storage. The answer was 480 gigs an hour!
I must have made a face, because he instantly said that it also shot Pro-res 4K.
I then asked if there was a lens crop like the original model. Yes, he said, like shooting with a 7D = ~1.7(?)

So, the price is certainly good, but prepare to buy a TON of storage if you plan to shoot RAW and there is a crop factor to deal with.
Certainly BM is pushing the industry, and that is good for consumers.
 
Jacques Mersereau said:
I asked the BM sales guy at NAB what an hour of RAW 4K footage required in the way of storage. The answer was 480 gigs an hour!
I must have made a face, because he instantly said that it also shot Pro-res 4K.
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Well, I would point out that 5K Epic at 5:1 (a common compression ratio for high end work) is almost 400GB per hour. So the storage requirements are roughly the same.
 
Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
Not handled the BMCC but I suspect build quality pays some part into this equation. Certainly the quote you've made of Jeff's description suggests this. It also fits with my experience of handling various DSLRs; move up in the DSLR food chain from the bottom to the top and while the features and tech spec do go up, one of the most noticeable is the build quality.

REDs are built like tanks (especially the RED One) and while the BMD kit I've got is much better than most amateur aimed kit its not sitting there giving off the impression that it would be fine taking the odd stray round like my scarlet does (I treat it like its made of really thin china, but its built for more).
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The BMCC and the BMPC4k are made out of machined aluminum. Pretty durable, I would say. The SSD door is made out of plastic though (I bet people are going to be replacing that part over time).

Again, I'm not trying to talk about camera religion, I just want to talk about how this camera compares to the Red One M and Red One MX. It seems to be very comparable in regards to 24fps narrative. Is there a reason it shouldn't be taken as seriously as the Red One has been for theatrical cinema work?

For those of you who haven't looked it up yet, here is the BMPC4k: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k
 
M Most said:
Well, I would point out that 5K Epic at 5:1 (a common compression ratio for high end work) is almost 400GB per hour. So the storage requirements are roughly the same.
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I thought I read somewhere that the compression on the BMPC was about 2:1. I haven't done the math but that might square with your "equivalence" statement except that you are comparing 4K (BMPC) and 5K (Epic). Shooting 4K Epic at 5:1 would give you less data. So, I guess the real question is which image looks better at a given data rate.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I don't get referring to a Super-35 sensor as having a crop factor unless your only experience with lenses is shooting them on a FF35 camera.
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With so many filmmakers these days cutting their teeth on DSLRs that may well be where the current common usage of the term comes from. It does seem odd referring everything to a frame size that's different to the standard in the industry.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I thought I read somewhere that the compression on the BMPC was about 2:1. I haven't done the math but that might square with your "equivalence" statement except that you are comparing 4K (BMPC) and 5K (Epic). Shooting 4K Epic at 5:1 would give you less data. So, I guess the real question is which image looks better at a given data rate.
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i was responding to a comment that the storage requirements for the BMCC were enormous. I was simply pointing out that in a fairly common operating configuration, the storage requirements for an Epic were about the same, which means that its either a major issue or a non-issue for both, depending on your point of view.
 
M Most said:
i was responding to a comment that the storage requirements for the BMCC were enormous. I was simply pointing out that in a fairly common operating configuration, the storage requirements for an Epic were about the same, which means that its either a major issue or a non-issue for both, depending on your point of view.
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Well they ARE enormous if you can get the same or better quality image at 25-50% (or less) of the data size.
 
BM states 72min with a 480gb ssd....that is pretty much in line with red 5:1?
i compared stills from the 2.5k BMC a year ago to scarlet stills at 4k and the extra resolution fades quickly when you start compressing the data....so i would not be surprised to see the 4K BMC produce better stills then scarlet at 4K....
i am not interested in the BMC(s) because i need higher frame rates and be able to pull stills but for anyone working in motion these cameras should be a no-brainer....i will probably get one as a back up as well....
if they manage to ship them on time (this time), they will hurt sony and canon pretty bad....especially since they don't seem to have anything even remotely close to it....
i honestly doubt RED will be hurt that much....
but 4K at 4000...incl battery, 5" touch screen, mount and 1000 in the best color software around.....hard to beat...i paid more then that for my red touch, side handle and batteries alone....
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Well they ARE enormous if you can get the same or better quality image at 25-50% (or less) of the data size.
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So Terry - since you're evidently seen the BM4K footage in order to make the judgement that despite the lack of rolling shutter (a huge plus) BM4K footage is lower quality than the more-compressed Scarlet footage... would you mind posting the footage? I'm dying to see some, myself.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
So Terry - since you're evidently seen the BM4K footage in order to make the judgement that despite the lack of rolling shutter (a huge plus) BM4K footage is lower quality than the more-compressed Scarlet footage... would you mind posting the footage? I'm dying to see some, myself.

Bruce Allen
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That is not at all what I said. I am sure I know less about the BMPC than even you do. If you read the post I made a couple ago, I posed the question - based on a comment about data rates - as to whether the BM was a 2:1 compression and how it would compare with the multiple compression options of the RED. My comment was that the difference in data storage IS enormous IF you could get a better picture with less data. We'll see how the image quality compares when they are available.

Another reasonable question to ask is whether the BMPC has variable compression or not. Maybe you know, I don't.
 
Jacques Mersereau said:
I was told that there is only one compression rate choice that the 4K BM camera has when recording RAW.
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Yes, Grant Petty said that the BMPC uses slightly lossy but "visually lossless" compression so they can get the CinemaDNG data onto the SSD.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
That is not at all what I said. I am sure I know less about the BMPC than even you do. If you read the post I made a couple ago, I posed the question - based on a comment about data rates - as to whether the BM was a 2:1 compression and how it would compare with the multiple compression options of the RED. My comment was that the difference in data storage IS enormous IF you could get a better picture with less data. We'll see how the image quality compares when they are available.

Another reasonable question to ask is whether the BMPC has variable compression or not. Maybe you know, I don't.
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Oh - sorry about that.

AFAIK, BMPC shoots ProRes 4K and this compressed raw.

For most projects, just shoot ProRes, and for the special cases shoot raw. If you're shooting raw, data rates should be similar to Epic.

Personally I like to triple-backup things across multiple RAID-6 or RAID-5 arrays, so every 1 TB of footage needs around 3.5 TB of drives worth. End result is that every hour of uncompressed raw 4K footage that I'd want to keep would cost around $80. If you're less paranoid it probably costs around $25 or so. Now. When 5TB drives come out later in the year, prices will go down further.

If I were shooting a lot of footage, I'd probably just transcode to a compressed raw format like Cineform. Or grade it with an Arri LogC curve to ProRes.

Also - don't underestimate the economy of the BMPC being able to shoot to off-the-shelf SSDs. Those things are just plummeting in price - and performance will only go up.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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