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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Its official - Black Magic 4k Cinema Camera

Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
With so many filmmakers these days cutting their teeth on DSLRs that may well be where the current common usage of the term comes from. It does seem odd referring everything to a frame size that's different to the standard in the industry.
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The lenses that go on the Blackmagic 4K camera (EF lenses) were designed for stills cameras. The industry standard in the 35mm stills world is the size known as "Full Frame." Makes perfect sense to me.
 
Häakon said:
The lenses that go on the Blackmagic 4K camera (EF lenses) were designed for stills cameras. The industry standard in the 35mm stills world is the size known as "Full Frame." Makes perfect sense to me.
Click to expand...

BMD casually mentioned the prospect of releasing a PL mount version of the 4k camera. I'm interested to see what they do with it.

I don't feel like I am jumping ship, per se, but the BMD Production 4k camera is the one I will own for now if the footage looks great. At 4k, who wouldn't want this cam (even if you used it as crash cam on Red shoots)? I will still continue to shoot on Red One/Scarlet/Epic when I have access and the project calls for it, but I don't think there is anything wrong with adding a 4k RAW cinema camera to your lineup if it's only 4k.

This will "get me by" until I work up to buying an Epic Dragon (or the future high-end equivalent). :}
 
Would actually love to have one (after seeing some footage from it). Unsure if it is worth going for this cheaper camera, or actually spending the extra buck for a used Red Scarlet. Not only using Reds on certain projects, but actually being able to pick it up an experiment with it at any time would be great! But future will tell I guess :P
 
Jens Rosengren said:
Would actually love to have one (after seeing some footage from it). Unsure if it is worth going for this cheaper camera, or actually spending the extra buck for a used Red Scarlet. Not only using Reds on certain projects, but actually being able to pick it up an experiment with it at any time would be great! But future will tell I guess :P
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If they have shot countless movies with a 2.5K camera like Arri Alexa, they certainly going to do the same with this 4K Raw camera for sure.. If you need higher frame rates for some shots, rent a Phantom or an Epic.. (of course, if you can afford it, buy an Epic with Dragon!)
 
I'm sure the BMC 4k camera will take many sales away from possible Scarlet buyers... and why wouldn't it. it ticks the price and performance boxes.

BM have technically just made a there very own scarlet with the added bonus that it shoots PRORES 4k (YAY!!!!) as well as RAW for $4,000 ...

If it shot up to 150fps in RAW mode or in PRO RES (log) I myself would start seriously looking at the camera for myself... But at the moment .... NO. It doesn't tick enough boxes for me as yet.


Effective Sensor Size

21.12mm x 11.88mm (Super 35).
Effective Resolution

3840 x 2160
Shooting Resolutions

3840 x 2160, 1920x1080.
Frame Rates

3840 x 2160p23.98,
3840 x 2160p24,
3840 x 2160p25,
3840 x 2160p29.97,
3840 x 2160p30,
1920 x 1080p23.98,
1920 x 1080p24,
1920 x 1080p25,
1920 x 1080p29.97,
1920 x 1080p30,
1920 x 1080i50,
1920 x 1080i59.94.

Dynamic Range

12 stops.
Focus

Focus button turns on peaking.
Iris Control

Iris button automatically adjusts the lens iris settings so no pixel is clipped in film mode. Scene average auto exposure in video mode.
Lens Mount

EF and ZE mount compatible with electronic iris control.
Screen Dimensions

5" and 800 x 480 resolution.
Screen Type

Integrated LCD capacitive touchscreen.
Metadata Support

Automatic camera data and user data such as shot number, filenames and keywords.

Controls

On screen touch menus and physical buttons for recording and transport control.
Microphone

Integrated mono microphone.
Speaker

Integrated mono speaker.
Mounting Options

3 x 1/4"-20 UNC thread mounting points on top of camera. 1 x 1/4"-20 UNC thread tripod mount with locator pin.
 
Mark Toia said:
I'm sure the BMC 4k camera will take many sales away from possible Scarlet buyers... and why wouldn't it. it ticks the price and performance boxes.

BM have technically just made a there very own scarlet with the added bonus that it shoots PRORES 4k (YAY!!!!) as well as RAW for $4,000 ...

If it shot up to 150fps in RAW mode or in PRO RES (log) I myself would start seriously looking the camera. But at the moment .... NO. It doesn't tick enough boxes for me.
Click to expand...

I'm with you 100%, Toia. I've placed some orders though, still!

What's the bet that's what Blackmagic announce at NAB 2014? The sensors can do it already.

NAB 2014
For the larger cameras: High fps, XLR inputs, a revised body design, PL mount option, plus wi-fi control?
For the pocket cam: High fps and wi-fi?

Of course I would love stereo sync / genlock. I've requested the feature but am not holding my breath.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Mark Toia said:
I'm sure the BMC 4k camera will take many sales away from possible Scarlet buyers... and why wouldn't it. it ticks the price and performance boxes.
Click to expand...

To rant: something people overlook is the 'mojo' of a given camera - the ineffable quality that people like Soderberg fight for in order to use it on a project like Che - even though there were technical hurdles with a camera that was effectively still in the alpha stage of development at production inception. So until we see the 'mojo' from the 4K BMDCC it's a risky purchase, artistically speaking.
 
Mark Toia said:
I'm sure the BMC 4k camera will take many sales away from possible Scarlet buyers... and why wouldn't it. it ticks the price and performance boxes.

BM have technically just made a there very own scarlet with the added bonus that it shoots PRORES 4k (YAY!!!!) as well as RAW for $4,000 ...

If it shot up to 150fps in RAW mode or in PRO RES (log) I myself would start seriously looking the camera. But at the moment .... NO. It doesn't tick enough boxes for me.


Effective Sensor Size

21.12mm x 11.88mm (Super 35).
Effective Resolution

3840 x 2160
Shooting Resolutions

3840 x 2160, 1920x1080.
Frame Rates

3840 x 2160p23.98,
3840 x 2160p24,
3840 x 2160p25,
3840 x 2160p29.97,
3840 x 2160p30,
1920 x 1080p23.98,
1920 x 1080p24,
1920 x 1080p25,
1920 x 1080p29.97,
1920 x 1080p30,
1920 x 1080i50,
1920 x 1080i59.94.

Dynamic Range

12 stops.
Focus

Focus button turns on peaking.
Iris Control

Iris button automatically adjusts the lens iris settings so no pixel is clipped in film mode. Scene average auto exposure in video mode.
Lens Mount

EF and ZE mount compatible with electronic iris control.
Screen Dimensions

5" and 800 x 480 resolution.
Screen Type

Integrated LCD capacitive touchscreen.
Metadata Support

Automatic camera data and user data such as shot number, filenames and keywords.

Controls

On screen touch menus and physical buttons for recording and transport control.
Microphone

Integrated mono microphone.
Speaker

Integrated mono speaker.
Mounting Options

3 x 1/4"-20 UNC thread mounting points on top of camera. 1 x 1/4"-20 UNC thread tripod mount with locator pin.
Click to expand...

You forgot global shutter without the use of a motion mount.. Don't know if that is very relevant..
 
That mojo is highly subjective though; generally speaking I think it's pretty unanimous that people actually prefer, for example, Alexa's (and even BMCC's) "mojo/look" because it emulates film (highlight roll-off specifically, but also skintones and colour science) better than RED/MX. No amount of framerate or resolution can really change that perception (although hopefully dragon might, but when an entire camera is essentially 1/3rd the price of your upgrade, even that's a tough sell).

...Honestly, I think people who are downplaying what BM is doing even at the paper-launch stage (e.g. Claiming it's a toy? Have you played with 2.5k BMCC footage?) are in for a rude awakening. Particularly Scarlet owners who have already been price competing with 5D rentals (using 4k RAW as their differentiating factor) or are passed over for Epic rentals.

Remember, it's $4k WITH Resolve 10!?... Given how much Resolve used to be 3 years ago, that's basically like saying 'here's your included s35 4k RAW camera with Resolve purchase.' I'm in need of a Resolve license (to finish in 4k) and it's seriously a worthwhile consideration to splurge the extra $3k and get a 4k/RAW b-cam (even if I just used it for shots that require a Global Shutter; in fact, that's so inexpensive, that the motion mount doesn't even look like that great of an option since it costs $1500 more than an entire 4k/raw camera with GS.)

Truth is, the quality-difference gap just got insanely narrow, even if it's only on paper (specs) -- worse case, if the BMPC does BAD 4k/RAW, it'll still be so much closer (comparatively) to 4k-6k REDraw than a 5D or any other ~$3k camera currently out there... And if on paper a $3k camera looks equal, you can bet your butt that producers will take notice.

And, yeah, to echo Bruce, it wouldn't be surprising if at NAB2014 they announced/released a FF35/4-6k camera for $5k and forgo the frame rate chasing altogether. At that point, unless Dragon also gets another update, it won't look nearly as competitive even if it still has a massive res/dr/framerate advantage.
 
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I'm not to worried about cameras anymore, and who's making what these days... My EPICs have made there money back many times over. So if Coca cola or Google came out with a better camera, I could happily buy them.... but at the moment, what really gives the EPIC an arse kicking. ?

Nothing... ?


If your looking for cheap horsepower... I'd still be looking at a 5DMKIII With no funny rigs attached. just as it is with a view finder on the back of it.... Done. Finished. nice and easy. :)

If I was after a cheap powerful 4k camera... the BNC 4k has just won that little race when its finally delivered. (sorry scarlet)

If your after a 4k. 5k, 6k, RAW camera that can shoot hi frame rates up to 150 fps... then the EPIC is still the king.

4k High speed camera.. the Phantom wins.

The Sony range... ? are just 1 to many steps behind to excite me... They sort of feel like they have just made a better version of the REDONE? .. im not convinced.

Arri.. well. lets be honest.... A 2k HD Pro res camera... that can shot 2.8k raw... Arri are quite away behind, in the price, performance category.
 
Mike P. said:
That mojo is highly subjective though; generally speaking I think it's pretty unanimous that people actually prefer, for example, Alexa's (and even BMCC's) "mojo/look" because it emulates film (highlight roll-off specifically, but also skintones and colour science) better than RED/MX. No amount of framerate or resolution can really change that (although hopefully dragon might, but when an entire camera is essentially 1/3rd the price of your upgrade, even that's a tough sell).

...Honestly, I think people who are downplaying what BM is doing even at the paper-launch stage (e.g. Claiming it's a toy? Have you used the "old" 2.5k BMCC?) are in for a rude awakening. Particularly Scarlet owners who have already been price competing with 5D rentals (using 4k RAW as their differentiating factor) or are passed over for Epic rentals.

Remeber, it's $4k WITH Resolve 10!?... Given how much Resolve used to be 3 years ago, that's basically like saying 'here's your included s35 4k RAW camera with Resolve purchase.' I'm in need of a Resolve license (to finish in 4k) and it's seriously a worthwhile consideration to splurge the extra $3k and get a 4k/RAW b-cam (even if I just used it for shots that require a Global Shutter; in fact, that's so inexpensive, that the motion mount doesn't even look like that great of an option since it costs $1500 more than an entire 4k/raw camera with GS.)

Truth is, the quality-difference gap just got insanely narrow, even if it's only on paper (specs) -- worse case, if the BMPC does BAD 4k/RAW, it'll still be so much closer (comparatively) to 4k-6k REDraw than a 5D or any other ~$3k camera currently out there... And if on paper a $3k camera looks equal, you can bet your butt that producers will take notice.

And, yeah, to echo Bruce, it wouldn't be surprising if at NAB2014 they announced/released a FF35/4-6k camera for $5k and forgo the frame rate chasing altogether. At that point, unless Dragon also gets another update, it won't look nearly as competitive even thought it'd still have a massive res/dr/framerate advantage.
Click to expand...

If the BMCC is 13 stops, I think the 12 stops of the 4K BMDCC will look fairly contrasty in many situations (especially those who chose locations indiscriminately and lack lighting tools) which could disenchant inexperienced photographers. I only say 'wait and see' because a global shutter might change the 'chemistry' of the BMDCC sensor (or it's a different sensor altogether). I don't deny that it will undermine the Scarlet realm. There will always be lowballers in the amateur filmmaking realm. Perhaps this will clarify the market so that underhand amateur producers don't lead on RED owner/operators.

Regarding the filmic quality of BMDCC 1.0: I contest that and I see footage looking fairly contrasty. As for RED looking lesser than Alexa or BMDCC: it depends on taste but that goes back to the point about RAW processing. If you look at Holy Motors or Rust and Bone you can get a look people easily mistake for Alexa, for example.
 
I agree with you both of your last posts, Mark and Brett.

In my experience even at ISO800, MX is closer to 12stops usable than 13.5, but, yeah, BMPC uses an new/different sensor, so it could end up looking comparatively crappy (it's global shutter might cause other visual artifacts... at 4k, it's lack of OLPF, which should make it look as sharp 6k with OLPF, could cause too much moire to be useful, etc.). As for the BMCC, I think a lot of its users tend to push the contrast too far in what would otherwise be an incredibly flat/log image, so I think it's appearance has more to do with processing than anything.

Haven't seen either Holy Motors or Rust & Bone but for reference, I think Our Idiot Brother is some of the best RED footage out there thus far. That said, I am unfamiliar with what any of those films required for their post. Who knows how much massaging (or extra lighting) was needed to get them there beyond what other cameras need for the same/similar result (e.g. Alexa, F35/F65, etc...)

I guess all I'm saying is, it's great that RED has these upgrade/module options, but the direction their going is far from what they were doing with the R1 (which I guess is what I was kind of hoping I was buying into with a Scarlet.) The easiest thing to point to is the $$ differences between the two camera systems, but it's just a different mentality between the two. Now that everyone is either doing, or is in the process of doing, 4k/RAW/s35 (for so damn cheap in the case of BM) it will be interesting to see how strong the allegiance/fanboyism actually is.
 
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As much as I LOVE Red. It really is quite interesting that a 4K Global Shutter Digital Cinema Camera from Black Magic with Resolve 10 is going for $3,995 while the Global Shutter Red Motion Mount is going for $1,500 more than all of that. And just to update the current rolling shutter cameras as the Global Shutter Era kicks off! Honestly, I think the Magic Mount should come with the Dragon upgrade and Dragon cameras. Maybe it is...I don't know but $5,500 for that technology (even though it includes the ND filter technology) in the whole scheme of things it's pricey.

Mike P. said:
That mojo is highly subjective though; generally speaking I think it's pretty unanimous that people actually prefer, for example, Alexa's (and even BMCC's) "mojo/look" because it emulates film (highlight roll-off specifically, but also skintones and colour science) better than RED/MX. No amount of framerate or resolution can really change that perception (although hopefully dragon might, but when an entire camera is essentially 1/3rd the price of your upgrade, even that's a tough sell).

...Honestly, I think people who are downplaying what BM is doing even at the paper-launch stage (e.g. Claiming it's a toy? Have you played with 2.5k BMCC footage?) are in for a rude awakening. Particularly Scarlet owners who have already been price competing with 5D rentals (using 4k RAW as their differentiating factor) or are passed over for Epic rentals.

Remember, it's $4k WITH Resolve 10!?... Given how much Resolve used to be 3 years ago, that's basically like saying 'here's your included s35 4k RAW camera with Resolve purchase.' I'm in need of a Resolve license (to finish in 4k) and it's seriously a worthwhile consideration to splurge the extra $3k and get a 4k/RAW b-cam (even if I just used it for shots that require a Global Shutter; in fact, that's so inexpensive, that the motion mount doesn't even look like that great of an option since it costs $1500 more than an entire 4k/raw camera with GS.)

Truth is, the quality-difference gap just got insanely narrow, even if it's only on paper (specs) -- worse case, if the BMPC does BAD 4k/RAW, it'll still be so much closer (comparatively) to 4k-6k REDraw than a 5D or any other ~$3k camera currently out there... And if on paper a $3k camera looks equal, you can bet your butt that producers will take notice.

And, yeah, to echo Bruce, it wouldn't be surprising if at NAB2014 they announced/released a FF35/4-6k camera for $5k and forgo the frame rate chasing altogether. At that point, unless Dragon also gets another update, it won't look nearly as competitive even if it still has a massive res/dr/framerate advantage.
Click to expand...
 
Adam Johnson said:
As much as I LOVE Red. It really is quite interesting that a 4K Global Shutter Digital Cinema Camera from Black Magic with Resolve 10 is going for $3,995 while the Global Shutter Red Motion Mount is going for $1,500 more than all of that. And just to update the current rolling shutter cameras as the Global Shutter Era kicks off! Honestly, I think the Magic Mount should come with the Dragon upgrade and Dragon cameras. Maybe it is...I don't know but $5,500 for that technology (even though it includes the ND filter technology) in the whole scheme of things it's pricey.
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Mate, it's not just a global shutter and ND, but better than that. i wouldn't reduce what red has achieved to that. The magic motion mount will not only reduce rolling shutter and half screen flash but it completely kills judder in sideways motion etc. It is rather unique and special, if it is in fact the tessive filter after all. And this is something no digital camera has really been able to achieve to date... the magic motion mount can theoretcally handle judder etc better than film... but this is yet to be seen.

This is something that the BMCC will not be able to do from what I understand.
 
When you just compare the specs on paper between the BMPC and Scarlet/Epic/Dragon, Red still has the edge. I know that price has been brought up in this thread (and not without merit), but you have to remember that Red focuses on the tech first, price second. Luckily, Red tries to bring the cost down as much as possible, but if there is a compromise between tech and price, price is going to be the first thing on the chopping block.

BMD has taken the opposite approach. They recognize the same problem that Jim has: the proliferation of inferior digital acquisition. Their solution is to try to improve the overall quality of the digital acquisition landscape by getting high quality cameras into as many hands as possible. They try to cram as much tech as they possibly can into a locked price point, and they don't try to hide the fact.

Here is an interview with Dan May (President of BMD) where he talks about the new cameras: http://www.scruffy.tv/thatpostshow/dan-may-at-nab-2013.html

When discussing the specs of the BMPC, not only does he admit that the camera is going to take a hit in dynamic range, he doesn't try to hide that one stop is actually pretty significant. Straight shooter. The rumored sensor can actually attain higher dynamic range and framerates, but that increases cost. The BMPC is not an Epic, and that's not the end goal for them.

Yes, the BMPC may eat up some Scarlet sales, but as we can see from the recent announcements, Scarlet was not built to keep pace with everything that Red is doing. Scarlet is made from Epic leftovers as a way to recoup production loss and get the little guys and gals into the Red family. With Dragon, the push is to get these Scarlet owners fitted into Epics. Red pursues the bleeding edge. I don't think that the goals of BMD and Red are competing, and I think that they will co-exist perfectly. If anything, cameras like the BMPC will drive demand for higher quality acquisition. (If you need extra frame rates at 4k+ resolution, where else are you going to go?)

The BMPC is a 24fps version of a Red One at a quarter of the original price. Some of my favorite recent films were shot with that camera. I don't see why the BMPC can't do the same.

In the beginning, Jim said that his main goal was to retire film with dignity: 4k digital acquisition with great dynamic range and a look that would stand up to film. Jim predicted products like the BMPC years ago. His goal was to slay 1080p as a professional acquisition format, and in case you haven't kept up, he's succeeding. The BMPC is just further proof of that.

Great time to be a filmmaker.
 
I'm not sure what you're all ranting about.

Why would you even compare an Epic to a BMCC? The technology, form factor, resolution, DR etc of the Epic are more advanced than the BMCC.

Numbers wise it's a no brainier the BMCC will outsell the EPIC hundred to one. That's because the BMCC does everything Sony, Canon, Panasonic, JVC and even Red have been promising indie filmmakers for years; large sensor, robust codecs, balanced audio, interchangeable lens mount, hdsdi outputs, 6G thunderbolt output, 4k, 12 stops DR, free editing and color-grading software with effects plugin, all at a price cheaper than an hvx200 or Sony EX1, what's not to like?
You and I know a cottage industry will spring up overnight to help overcome all the short comings of the camera.
When a camera promises so much for such a little price it's smart to start off with a least 3.

The Epic 6k dragon is a whole new beast, it going to really revolutionize they the look of film and TV.
My predictions Steven Spielberg will shoot his first digi flick on an Epic if not an F65.

Red is really putting their Knickers out to soak by adhering to their upgrade path. They could have easily built a brand new cam
Until we see some footage fro the dragon and Bmc4k, right now it's clear that Ar ri and Sony are kings
.
 
Ivan Kovax said:
Mate, it's not just a global shutter and ND, but better than that. i wouldn't reduce what red has achieved to that. The magic motion mount will not only reduce rolling shutter and half screen flash but it completely kills judder in sideways motion etc. It is rather unique and special, if it is in fact the tessive filter after all. And this is something no digital camera has really been able to achieve to date... the magic motion mount can theoretcally handle judder etc better than film... but this is yet to be seen.

This is something that the BMCC will not be able to do from what I understand.
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Yes the motion mount as I understand is a sinewave shutter if wanted. Basically that gives you superb motion blur and not the shutter length same exposure streaks as the other global shutters are giving. So do not compare the two. To me global shutter is nice, not that I really ever had any footage that looked good but suffered from rolling shutter. To me the rolling shutter issues comes when the camera shake and what not is so much so the image is pretty much non to have any way, and for flashes and such I actually never had one of these half exposed frames, and if I would get one I guess I could solve it some how. However I really do not like the constant shutter length exposures that the global shutter and the rolling shutters has, like back lit rain for example and such that looks like sticks in the air. The motion mount will turn the end of those sticks into fades in a nice way, more like we see it with our eyes, not exactly like film, film get the nice rolloff and aditive highlights in motion blur, but I guess thats the next step after the motion mount.
 
Here's a question to chuck into the dustbowl.

(QUOTE: And this is something no digital camera has really been able to achieve to date... the magic motion mount can theoretcally handle judder etc better than film... but this is yet to be seen. )

Would the magic motion mount tech make film look even better - just a thought.
 
Sorry to re-post this elsewhere --

My Fuji X100 still camera features 11 stops of dynamic range, which seems plenty, so the 12 stops that is part of the BMD Production camera should be more than fine. If you happen to use Facebook, here's a publicly accessible album of photos taken with my X100. You'll see the dynamic range is fine (and so, too, should be with the BMD Production cam) - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3362948&type=3
 
The contrast difference between the dimist light and brightest that can be seen is something like a billion to one (30 stops) (or 10 billion), however the human eye tops out much lower than this at any instance. I forget, but think it was a 1000:1, with the accommodation of the eye itself accounting for 100:1 or something, the rest is accommodation, and the brain. However, your eye is constantly adjusting over a real life scene, so uses a much greater range. However, this range is divided up between dark and day time vision, with each about 100,000:1 (or was that 1million to one for day vision), with some overlap in between.

So, with some careful use of 12 stops you should be able to light realistic scenes, but not as much push as in a 16.5/17 stop range. After that you get lots to push around. To make proper use of such high latitudes requires high bit depth, so you can pick and choose what part of the latitude to use, otherwise you will be subject to gradient stepping. If 8 bits covers 16.5 stops, and you want to use a 10 stop slice of range, then you have around 5 bits of resolution in that range normally. So, 12 bits for 10 stops is probably optimal for color correction, though 10 or 8 bits should work without the color correction.
 
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