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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It kinda feels.......

Phil Holland

Phil Holland

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Like 2006 again. Sort of.

I'll keep it cryptic as that's the best way for now.

Had some wild conversations tonight regarding variety of topics pertaining to cameras, all gear really, this industry, and all sorts of off topic-yet on topic things.

Landscape has changed a whole bunch, the timeline has certainly evolved, but I'll tell you I had a bunch of oddly similar familiar things spat out to me this evening. Words that were pushed out at a time when this industry small sapling compared to massive redwood it has become. My head nodded as I listened and the motion was nearly the exact speed as many moons ago.

Then after a nearly concussive hazy moment of introspection it did indeed feel like I saw the black cat twice and deja vu was in full effect.

What was old is new again and what is new is somehow old again. Bizarre, yet understandable.

Spicy times indeed.
 
Phil, you've branched out into poetry! ("Old is new again" indeed!)

As always, will look forward to your take as more is revealed...
 
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Björn Benckert said:
What happen, Did you eat all the shrooms at once?
Click to expand...

I had the same thought...but I think he might be talking about Sony and F35 (released in 2008 actually) was on top, and now it looks like Venice 2 might take the ball again. Or maybe it is just the shrooms talking, who knows?
 
2006 was definitely a year known for RED's public debut so I would think that should be put into consideration.

Phil- considering that your post count is about to read in consecutive numbers - 12345 how about dropping a nice hint in a couple of posts?

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
2006 was the year when i moved form Europe to North America and a year when i was shooting Fuji Negative... i dont see my self going back to Europe and shooting on Etherna and Reala that dont exist any more :(
 
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Brian Timmons said:
2006 was definitely a year known for RED's public debut so I would think that should be put into consideration.

Phil- considering that your post count is about to read in consecutive numbers - 12345 how about dropping a nice hint in a couple of posts?
Click to expand...

I'll dance. Part of the conversation revolved around how cameras at X, Y, or Z price points aren't competition with each other. And was mentioned that price determined performance. It's also been interesting seeing products released nearly exclusively at a higher price tag mainly targeting rental houses, most of which didn't exist until this past decade. Some not even 3 years ago.

The RED One was $17,500. V-Raptor is $24,500, which was shocking for many including myself. Not to mention this is a VV sensor. Yes, you have to get AKS to get it up and running and XL isn't out yet.

There will be tests and comparisons made against announced and unannounced systems. But the oddity to me was at least one person I spoke to was in an echo chamber.

The spooky thought I brought up before Raptor's release during an interview last year is what a modern RED camera in the $80K price realm could be and currently their flagship is -1/3rd of that. Looking around there's not a lot of large format 8K 120 cameras out there. Yes. I know K's and FPS aren't everything. But this is a good sensor as well. That makes the mind wonder a whole lot about the state of the market once again.

I remember costing out a Viper system after working with the camera a few times way back when. I got a quote on a camera system this week that, well, it is what it is. ROI likely can still be made I imagine. But it's a yikes price that currently means nothing until I can test some hardware.
 
Phil Holland said:
I'll dance. Part of the conversation revolved around how cameras at X, Y, or Z price points aren't competition with each other. And was mentioned that price determined performance. It's also been interesting seeing products released nearly exclusively at a higher price tag mainly targeting rental houses, most of which didn't exist until this past decade. Some not even 3 years ago.

The RED One was $17,500. V-Raptor is $24,500, which was shocking for many including myself. Not to mention this is a VV sensor. Yes, you have to get AKS to get it up and running and XL isn't out yet.

There will be tests and comparisons made against announced and unannounced systems. But the oddity to me was at least one person I spoke to was in an echo chamber.

The spooky thought I brought up before Raptor's release during an interview last year is what a modern RED camera in the $80K price realm could be and currently their flagship is -1/3rd of that. Looking around there's not a lot of large format 8K 120 cameras out there. Yes. I know K's and FPS aren't everything. But this is a good sensor as well. That makes the mind wonder a whole lot about the state of the market once again.

I remember costing out a Viper system after working with the camera a few times way back when. I got a quote on a camera system this week that, well, it is what it is. ROI likely can still be made I imagine. But it's a yikes price that currently means nothing until I can test some hardware.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I would have never have guessed that one fully.
If RED introduced V-Raptor with similar specs to Monstro at the same $24,500 price, that alone would have been very disruptive.
The frame rate/data rate upgrade in V-Raptor just takes it to a different level.

I don't quite understand the perspective some in the industry have where there seems to be a belief that RED comes up short with their releases.
Raptor is essentially giving more than double the resolution and frame rates in a smaller body than many other flagship models at a considerably lower price point.

The build quality in both camera body and pixel design is clearly there as it always was.

I understand industry loyalties and preferences but I do think cognitive dissonance has it's way when some consider the moves RED makes.

I keep thinking of the saying that describes industry status quo, "no one ever got fired for buying IBM."

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
These days, it's "Nobody at IBM gets fired for buying Apple."
Click to expand...

True times have changed.
Or perhaps back to Phil's original post- the more things change the more they remain the same.


Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
I'll bite.

I will not be buying another RED even though I've made 10x in ROI on Scarlet-W and the subsequent Gemini upgrade.

Why?

It comes down to politics and brand image. RED has a bad rep in loads of circles, especially in my market.

A friend of mine got burned by the Monstro devaluation from 80k to 50k, later they reduced pricing to 24k ish for a barely used battle tested Monstro.
I was also sold on "obsolescence obsolete". The Ginimag debacle exposed a lot as well and I personally know a scientist who "allegedly" worked on CameraRAW
formats before the RED ONE came out tell me that RED straight up and patented something which was being worked on collectively and openly.

A large part of the RED fanboy community seems like a bunch of fiscally irresponsible "kids" whom circlejerk over how disruptive and innovative
their cameras are. Well, a lot comes with the territory, right? But unfortunately RED leadership has fostered this kind of community - in my opinion -.

There are some minor things that irk me as well. Does my camera need toylike branding and a skull on the side? Thats not who I am and I don't think
anyone in a serious tier production - maybe even while working on a touchy subject matter - appreciates the obnoxious branding.

The launch live-video production for Raptor --- sorry --- was straight up sloppy and its the kind of chad-y-yolo-monster-can-ed-hardy ethics I've come to loathe.

Yes, the fully kitted Venice 2 will have worse specs, probably a more honest DR rating, cost 2.5x as much --- but its still the camera I will am looking at.

If RED opened up a new division with new leadership, a new design approach and kept promises, I might be convinced to buy whatever that brand would be.
 
Well, Sean, so much for "cameras don't matter"! LOL I respect you POV of course and I don't tell people what cameras to use unless they're asking. I think the Venice 2 is a terrific product and it will do very, very well.
 
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I could write a book (perhaps a series of books) about brandism, projection, and reception and it's impact on this industry versus reality. I've also seen some rather insane power plays made by a few professionals that I just can't fathom. I truly do loathe industry politics related to much of that. Has literally nothing to do with what most people are here to do if you catch my drift.

The circles of yesteryear when digital was new was the film versus digital thing. But that eventually became a non-issue. There are new circles now and they are.... Interesting. Some are cool. Some are rather divisive. I hope I can continue to cross worlds on any of those fronts I guess.

I have to say after the last couple years, especially the anti-RED extremists who went to great lengths through email and social media to provide death threats, create fake accounts pretending to be other people, and the lovely "my only mission in life is to destroy RED" mail was perhaps the strangest aspect of that time frame. I've seen some pretty anti brand stuff towards Arri, Canon, and Sony, what I would dare call legitimate hatred, but literally nothing like what some people went through during that time frame. Whatever that was and likely still is in some areas is probably the furthest I've seen from anything I'd call professional in a long, long time.

I do agree some of the brand image stuff has been a hurdle. Gone are the days of Weapon, Bombs, and such; which wasn't an issue for most professionals, but apparently that stuff does bug people. Now it's the skull, which I don't think personally bugs me, but everybody is different and it's still a camera brain.

Komodo and Raptor are clearly a step in a different direction comparatively.
 
The idea of someone going to such lengths as death threats to people who use a different camera brand is fucking wild. Some seriously unbalanced people out there.

Though in general the idea of forming some kind of emotional attachment or hatred to a brand of professional equipment seems pretty strange to me. Maybe I’m a weirdo.
 
I'll date myself by describing my entry into "film" making. It was a time when digital video was first hitting the prosumer marketplace. At the time, there was a huge argument in the "industry" that video could never, ever replace celluloid film. I was seriously criticized for saying that video would replace celluloid. The passions behind the arguments, clearly to me, showed the fallacy of listening, too seriously, to anyone with an opinion. Time goes on, doesn't it. Humorously, I wait for the day when a quantum shift in technology evokes arguments proclaiming that the quality of video will never be replaced.
 
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