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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It begins, rumors of 4k camera challengers.

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Wayne Morellini

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Well, rumors have started of new 4k range cameras coming out that will combat Scarlet.

Nikon making cameras for videography (informative, and previously asked if the J1 that has a 4k video sensor would do 4k in future, they indicated they were interested in 4k in future (I don't think specifucally in reference to the J1, as it should be. The sensor in the J1 is by Aptina (previously micron) which is an old familiar name from the projects before Red, that was more consumer level, but good to see they have upgraded).
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7694/nikon-say-we-will-make-our-stills-cameras-for-videographers

Canon is said to be releasing a new camera, a fixed version of the c300 and an EOS movie camera (are they the same) and have a raw codec patent application. The c300 was shown to be clearly superior in low light to the scarlet, but the threat is Sony sensors, as the Red sensor tech is due for an update, we are waiting on (Nab?) to restore order in the house.
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7687/n...012-unveiling-a-technical-briefing-and-dinner
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7665/w...vie-line-as-well-as-4k-cinema-eos-at-nab-2012

Canon 5d Mk3 2k matches Scarlet 2k.
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=10288

Sony next fs700 4k for $8k camera (but, reported recording to external recorder, how will that price is size and price to a Scarlet).
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7710/the-sony-nex-fs700-4k-for-8k

Here is the threat, Sony ff sensor leads the market, forget Canon, even if Nikon has an exclusive in still cameras for a while, that would not include other types cameras in itself. They are said to be releasing far superior sensors over the next few years, a new next video camera and Nex still line (they control a huge proprtion of the sensor market and can invest in technology) will any be 4k to sell their 4k TV's? The 4k issue with Sony is as interesting study as the Nintendo wii and 64 issues. Sony needs something to sell their new 4k TV's, and we see they are not first out of the gate. Usually Sony uses the PlayStation line to bail itself out and popularlise their other formats. With PSX it wa included a cd player, with PS2 it was the new DVD format, with the PS3 it was bluray. But with PS2 and now PS3. they did a normal video game thing, they overextended their product life cycle, with PS2 it was 7 years, with PS3 it was said to go to 10 years, by the time of the end of the PS2, and now the PS3, it looked dated compared to PC gaming (3-5 year life cycles are better, particularly if you can just boost the existing system performance at the third year). It has enough problem dealing with fullhd 3d gaming, let alone 4k. Will it handle 4k 3d bluray, or new h265 codec, or Redray? Nintendo was another one, they released the Nintendo 64 without cheaper to produce CD games, sprouting HD (but then not really using it). CD's proved popular. They dismissed HDTV, with the wii they released a lower performance machine, did not include even DVD, let alone bluray. Now what has happened in recent years. All pictures of over overestimating oneself, and underestimating the market. 4k 3d hdtv and cameras were needed instead of fullhd3d, 4k cameras are needed now to just sell TV sets. As for 4k 3d bluray, it is needed now, and could have been done before (with an expanding profile overtime to accommodate higher datatrates and better codec for better quality (as a couple years ago quality 144mb/s+ datarates might not have been practical)) as $99 Chinese bluray 3D players undercut their products.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-...n-d800-is-the-best-of-its-class-says-dxomark/

It is likely many cameras will be overpriced or mediocre. The cheaper ones maybe deliberately hampered in design (there are even consumer cameras that can pull 4k at video rates from a frame), but where will the Red be to combat them. Such a Scarlet based on mass market production principles would have been able to overwhelm them. I'm surprised to hear so many people, even locally, who were dissapionted they could not get a fixed. As it is, if Sony would add a sata port to record raw uncompressed Max resolution for progressive video frame rates (24/25/30/50/60p) from the nex5 x (whatever they call it) for $100 extra, we would have some true value.

I have also not mentioned the 4k for $5k Jvc camera (hear a $2k camera is coming)).
 
So you can see, JVC is leading the charge as ussual, so I pity those cheap 8mm 2.5k raw cameras coming out. Anybody remember their names or have links?
 
I welcome 4K anything, but 4k or Quad HD resolution
doesn't mean great picture quality...

If you like 8 bit AVCHD compression, you'll love the
new crop of upcoming 4K cameras- I expect they'll be "cheap" compared to Scarlet.

If the JVC 4K camcorder was any indication of what the footage will look like,
I wouldn't shoot a movie on one...

I'd rather rent a Scarlet- way cheaper and better final result...
 
I love the Scarlet, I love the RAW workflow, I love RedCineXpro, and I think I'm over camera lust. I found the one that makes me happy. It's great if more 4k cameras come out, but I will not regret my Scarlet purchase.
 
I welcome 4K anything, but 4k or Quad HD resolution
doesn't mean great picture quality...

If you like 8 bit AVCHD compression, you'll love the
new crop of upcoming 4K cameras- I expect they'll be "cheap" compared to Scarlet.

If the JVC 4K camcorder was any indication of what the footage will look like,
I wouldn't shoot a movie on one...

I'd rather rent a Scarlet- way cheaper and better final result...

Yep, still you can set up your picture, old style, on set. But they did this to us several years ago with mediocre name brand, and hdmi recording, versus raw kit cameras, and people fell for it. We would have been better off to keep going with it than going with the cameras that came out and waiting for them to release good cheap cameras. We could have had nice $2k raw years ago. At the moment the less than $1000 gh2 hack over 100mb/s h264 just kills the market too much for 2k camera projects.

The point is, Red should be crushing these cameras, two or three years ago, when the other companies really had their pants off selling garbage without a real plan. There are a number of really cheap consumer cameras based on cheap OEM chipsets that deal with 4k video frame rates internally, that could be induced to dump to sata flash disks, and converted to low cost compressed raw latter. So if you really wanted to, with the money, you could start a company to make a $2k 4k camera, even with s35 like sensor, there is no excuse. The problem is that they can keep moving the goal posts to block you, the parts you design for today can magically be not available to you, or delayed, by the time you want to lock in. If you want to sell a kit to make a existing camera download raw frames to data, you could land up in court, and the camera can be replaced in 6 months, so you will have to redesign again and again, with new standard cameras just good enough so that people dint take you seriously, just a hobby.
 
LOL. Scarlet @2k vs 5D MIII is a real funny idea for a comparison...

I met a guy that is convinced that 2k is the only relavent format for use at the moment. I disagree, as I look forwards a bit to use on the future, but in much of the market they only display fullhd-2k regularly, or at maxinum. So it is of value if all you are interested in is 2k at the moment, and 4k you are not concerned about.

But the thing people get tied up about is raw. You can do bad 8 bit heavily compressed raw, as you can do bad heavily compressed mpeg2 etc. What makes the difference is 10-16bit+ pixels with light compression on a good sensor and optics, which will even make 4:2:2 great in post.
 
As an important reason for people to choose the cams you mention is sensorsize, crop'ing to 2k skews the comparison a bit.
And oversampling is what makes cams shine. The reds, too.

That said, I recently saw a short shot in 2k It was lovely! Noisy but lovely!
 
4k is coming and will become a standard. However, not all of the cameras coming down the pipe will be created equally. Personally if we aren't seeing 12bit-16bit Raw out of these things I can't really see myself "switching" to another system. It's just too powerful of a workflow to give up on. And let me tell you how many working professionals want to download 4 cards and restitch a 4k image back together.... Who on earth approved that design?

The larger companies though will indeed release very affordable 4k options, and that's a given. What features they can toss into those cameras will be the huge question mark. And oddly, since the latest "new tech" seemed just so slightly incremental that the leap to 4k is going to be a massive leap both for manufacturers and consumers.

The interesting bit here is that Red's been doing 4k since 2007, and has since moved to 5k for a couple years now. Who knows what's up their sleeves next. Dynamic range improvements? Better ISO performance? Higher resolution capture? Larger sensor sizes? Higher frames per second?

Dragon likely holds the key to these questions. Fortunately for Red Epic/Scarlet owners that's an upgrade path and not an entire new camera purchase.
 
4k is very "nice to have" still for a while. Greater bit-depth is definitely "important to get" as is a bit wider DR. I find mysef a bit alone on the thing that I don't want higher ISO cameras (now) but cameras with more tolerance in the top.

I would sooo like to ditch that ND 9 or 1.2 we allways start with when moving outdoors. Without losing the lowlight capacity the RED cameras currently have. I just don't feel like I need more "seeing in the dark". But more "seeing in the light"... :)

My bet has been on some 32bit float standardizing in signal chain processing down the line, much like audio has landed on.

Or 16 bit non-float lin.

Anyhow.

We'll see.

The encryption and filesize of the Epc with current crop of rockets, is a bit limiting these days. Wish for a simpler decryption. Untill the format was encrypted, it played back reasonably well at 4k on (now) 4 year old coputers.
 
I totally agree. The ability to reach into say ISO 50 or even 25 territory would be amazing.
 
4k is very "nice to have" still for a while. Greater bit-depth is definitely "important to get" as is a bit wider DR. I find mysef a bit alone on the thing that I don't want higher ISO cameras (now) but cameras with more tolerance in the top.

I would sooo like to ditch that ND 9 or 1.2 we allways start with when moving outdoors. Without losing the lowlight capacity the RED cameras currently have. I just don't feel like I need more "seeing in the dark". But more "seeing in the light"... :)

My bet has been on some 32bit float standardizing in signal chain processing down the line, much like audio has landed on.

Or 16 bit non-float lin.

Anyhow.

We'll see.

The encryption and filesize of the Epc with current crop of rockets, is a bit limiting these days. Wish for a simpler decryption. Untill the format was encrypted, it played back reasonably well at 4k on (now) 4 year old coputers.


Words of wisdom. My largest dissappointment, and the time I got in the most trouble ever here on REDUser, was when the locked up the R3D files. I COMPLETELY understand the business rational behind it, but as a consumer it hurt me a lot.
 
please don't read anything of EOSHD, the lack of knowledge there is astonishing


Haha "EOSHD" I like that. I presume you mean Cinema5D. Like it or not the 5D has broken into cinema, so as funny as your point is, you kinda have to concede the name. I agree with your assessment.

It's read by quite a few, and should maybe be commented on, but agai maybe not here...

Sometimes it is appropriate and even important, but not generally.

BTW Gunliek, you are a valuable contributor and I like the way you think! Thanks for what you bring to the community. You are a model RedUser.
 
Basically I expect these lower end "4k" cameras to finally produce a decent 1080p. Kinda like the 1080 cams should have done all along. But no way are these gonna compare to 12-16-bit raw.
 
4k is coming and will become a standard. However, not all of the cameras coming down the pipe will be created equally. Personally if we aren't seeing 12bit-16bit Raw out of these things I can't really see myself "switching" to another system. It's just too powerful of a workflow to give up on. And let me tell you how many working professionals want to download 4 cards and restitch a 4k image back together....

Camera from the last part of the paragraph is not intended for the same purpose as those referenced with Raw capture ability.
Putting them all in one segment simply by similar pixel count has a tendency to cause confusion.

Who on earth approved that design?

Most likely someone who prioritized portable UHD 60p h.264 on cheap media.
 
It's great to see other camera companies going 4k. Luckily we don't have to buy a new camera, just need to buy a new sensor...
 
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