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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It begins, rumors of 4k camera challengers.

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Canon doesn't have a history of shooting themselves in the foot. In my opinion, if the c300 indicates anything, it's that Canon is going to be locked into this 4k-sensor-at-1080p-recording for the next couple of years. The Cinema EOS "4k" DSLR will most likely be the same -- "just" a c300 in a DSLR body, but without the audio/video features of the c300 -- and priced accordingly (somewhere between the highest-end DSLR and a c300.) Lame, I know, but I'm not expecting some miracle 4k recording (much less RAW) or some $3k DSLR-price point.

A c300-lite (fixed lens?) seems possible if you look at Canon's past, but who knows what they'll charge for it (probably more than you'd expect if the c300 is any indication).

As for Sony; I would love to see a 4k recording, non-RAW, s35 camera for $5000-7500 ready to shoot. That'd dominate the c300/Alexa and take a huge bite out of would-be Scarlet's customers as well. Unfortunately it'd also kill off the F3 pretty quick, so again, it's probably not likely... At least not at that price-point, and when you start getting into $10k+ area, you're probably better off getting a Scarlet (for digital cinema specifically).

With RED, as much as I'd like to see Dragon hit a clean base ISO of 12800, 1000fps/6k, and/or 15 stops of native DR (or something equally crazy), sometimes I think it'd serve them (and us) better if they focused even more on making Scarlet/Epic a little more bulletproof in the field. I'm not even talking about additional features (like the proposed pseudo-HDRx 4k on the SX), but basic functionality like phantom power or making black-shading less of an issue as it seems to be (I don't recall it being as much of a necessity with the R1mx.) It's hard to handle that stuff when you're attention is also focused on hammering out another completely new/revolutionary piece of tech (in this case Dragon), which promises to cure what ails ya.
 
Yep, I did mean eoshd. I have less problems with cinema5d, they actually own and use a scarlet as well as 5d's. It's good to compare and see if you can get away with slipping in a 5d mkiii shot in a sequence.

Oops, my oversight. Having recently seen a fresh, new and silly Canon/Scarlet comparison on cinema5d I jumped to the wrong conclusion.
 
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Canon doesn't have a history of shooting themselves in the foot. In my opinion, if the c300 indicates anything, it's that Canon is going to be locked into this 4k-sensor-at-1080p-recording for the next couple of years. The Cinema EOS "4k" DSLR will most likely be the same -- "just" a c300 in a DSLR body, but without the audio/video features of the c300 -- and priced accordingly (somewhere between the highest-end DSLR and a c300.) Lame, I know, but I'm not expecting some miracle 4k recording (much less RAW) or some $3k DSLR-price point.

A c300-lite (fixed lens?) seems possible if you look at Canon's past, but who knows what they'll charge for it (probably more than you'd expect if the c300 is any indication).

As for Sony; I would love to see a 4k recording, non-RAW, s35 camera for $5000-7500 ready to shoot. That'd dominate the c300/Alexa and take a huge bite out of would-be Scarlet's customers as well. Unfortunately it'd also kill off the F3 pretty quick, so again, it's probably not likely... At least not at that price-point, and when you start getting into $10k+ area, you're probably better off getting a Scarlet (for digital cinema specifically).

With RED, as much as I'd like to see Dragon hit a clean base ISO of 12800, 1000fps/6k, and/or 15 stops of native DR (or something equally crazy), sometimes I think it'd serve them (and us) better if they focused even more on making Scarlet/Epic a little more bulletproof in the field. I'm not even talking about additional features (like the proposed pseudo-HDRx 4k on the SX), but basic functionality like phantom power or making black-shading less of an issue as it seems to be (I don't recall it being as much of a necessity with the R1mx.) It's hard to handle that stuff when you're attention is also focused on hammering out another completely new/revolutionary piece of tech (in this case Dragon), which promises to cure what ails ya.

I don't think anyone is very likely to put a fixed zoom on a 35mm format anything. Too many compromises one would have to make, range vs speed vs size vs price and quality to be practical.
 
I don't think anyone is very likely to put a fixed zoom on a 35mm format anything. Too many compromises one would have to make, range vs speed vs size vs price and quality to be practical.

Not to mention the obvious lens sales.
 
I don't think anyone is very likely to put a fixed zoom on a 35mm format anything. Too many compromises one would have to make, range vs speed vs size vs price and quality to be practical.

That's a good point; I was just trying to think of the differences between their professional and prosumer broadcaster/videography lines (e.g. XL-H1 vs XH-A1, which were essentially the same; HDSDI and interchangeable lenses was the only difference.) I just can't think of anything else to differentiate; it's not like they're going to make the codec any worse, and there isn't much the c300 has that makes it so expensive... Conversely, I wouldn't be surprised if they may make a "c600" or something that actually records 4k and then charge double.
 
LOL. Scarlet @2k vs 5D MIII is a real funny idea for a comparison...

But gunleik...... Its the only way you can frame a comparison that might actually make the RED seem equal to a 3500 photo camera......
 
LOL. Scarlet @2k vs 5D MIII is a real funny idea for a comparison...


Monty-Python-limbless-Black-Knight.jpg

"There! Let's see if you can out shoot the 5D now you Scarlet!"
 
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Considering the amount of stuff still broadcast at SD resolution on today's HD monitors, I can't see there will need to be a huge rush on 4K cameras to fuel 4k screens. This stuff is always driven by the retailers, who pressure manufacturers to give them another format with margin in it as the last one is now selling so cheap there's no profit to be made. The limitation on broadcast will not be the cameras but things like vision switchers, same as it was in the early days of HD. Every network bought HDCams and Varicams but there were relatively few full HD switchers around which proved the weakest link in the chain. Perhaps now that BMD have entered the mixer/switcher market they could adapt to 4k faster and cheaper than happened with HD but it's still going to be the limitation for broadcast IMHO. How many cheap 4k vision mixers/switchers, routers etc are we being promised?

On these proposed new cameras, I'm sure there will be a raft of them at NAB and I'm just as sure most of them will deliver crap - if 4k crap instead of 1080 crap. I've seen people rate Scarlet below the C300. Really? 4k, 16bit RAW vs 1080 8 bit, Long GOP?

And yes Gunleik, enough of the fast. What I wanna see is ISO range downwards to 50 or 25 ISO. Gimme my electronic Kodachrome!
 
I want dynamic range on both ends. I think being able to shoot 2 stops cleaner in the shadows would do it for me. MX is pretty noisy for some scenarios even at 360* shutter. I can always ND, it's a lot harder to de-ND. :D
 
I'm quite sure all these new cameras will be upgradeable as technology advances... :-)

Jim
 
I'm quite sure all these new cameras will be upgradeable as technology advances... :-)

Jim


Hahahahaha!

Sony DID upgrade the F3 offer when the C300 and Scarlet came out the doors.
Like it or not, those 3 cams are now the main contestants for the former HVX-200/DSLR segment.
Price and current features will be deciding factors for the buyer, and a I worl a bit in broadcast, I have learned that the most data, upgradability and flexibility are not allways the deciding factors.

I hope Canon has some firmware upgrade plan for the C300, too - from the little I have used it so far... But I'll wait commenting too much on that until I have used it a bit more.

RED is the king of the hill, but it is for us out here to give people workable workflows that feels simple for productiontypes that would otherwise shoot DSLR/F3/C300 and don't have the budget for or wish for a raw workflow - and those are a few..

It is doable, though - if you add a rocket to the pricepoint.
 
I can see how NAB might be written this year as the year of 4K or what have with all these cameras and such being announced, but somehow I think JJ & co are probably going to nod & smile, then announce Dragon specs and probably other goodies that will be both upgradeable and blow away current 4K, even by Red's standards. I've seen and read enough of Jim to know he's not content to just let everyone catch up -he will push that envelope, throw down the gauntlet, and we will be the beneficiaries of that.
 
Basically I expect these lower end "4k" cameras to finally produce a decent 1080p. Kinda like the 1080 cams should have done all along. But no way are these gonna compare to 12-16-bit raw.

And the winner is..to reply to so many other posts.

While the real world may work on actual quantifiable figures, the world of marketing, spin, and actual sales works on perception, emotion, support, brand loyality etc. They will string us along, size up enough to at least marginalise Red while preserving their future slow market expansion and low cheap technology production, WE ARE IN THE 8K TECHNOLOGY ERA, as Jim well knows. We are still waiting for that 8k camera, we have the approx 8k still cell phone.

So the reality, is that they will offer non raw 8 bit, long gop, and people will say, wow, look what 'Canon/Sony' is offering us. Just because it is from a trusted/known/liked conoany they will go for it, a number get emotional about their favorite brand (like around here) blinded, confused by shinny things. These things are just not shiny enough to confuse me. On the flip side, these items are enough to do work, and conveniently without extra workflow steps, popular with many in the real world.

I'm quite sure all these new cameras will be upgradeable as technology advances... :-)

Jim

Yep, upgrade the sensor with the next $2k camera to replace the camera that had enough features for the owner, eventually they will likely get a good camera, maybe much worse than the new best of the new day.

Monty-Python-limbless-Black-Knight.jpg

"There! Let's see if you can out shoot the 5D now you Scarlet!"

That's hilarious, says it all, cut off your camera's design's arms and legs, and then go it against the Red Knight :-) .
 
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