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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is this camera a joke?

Ed Watkins said:
I have to say that the first time I ever laid hands on the RED I had a similar WTF? feeling as patrykrebisz, and I own two of them. Initially I had codec errors left, right and center. So I sympathize.

However, I sat down, took a deep breath, switched the firmware to a stable build, read all the post about work flow, known issues and advice. I then spent two weeks with the cams in a jungle, and I've got to say I couldn't be happier. There were a few glitches, but the images are stunning, and the 35m DOF is just great to have back after shooting on 2/3" chips for the last 3 years.

I think people on this forum are a bit hasty to jump on RED dissenters, sure he was kinda asking for it by the tone of the post. But in fairness, the RED is getting a bit of a hard time of it at the moment for work flow issues, beta builds and a general lack of instructions for operation. A hostile feeling forum certainly won't help.
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?????

Hostile feeling. You're just confirming what everybody is discussing?


regards,


Fredrik
 
patrykrebisz said:
After gruealing 2 days of shooting on a music video i gotta say it's the last time i'm working with this camera as i don't want to subject another director to similar BS.

I mean codec errors... even if i shoot to the Flash Cards??? Dropped frames for no apparent reason. Sometimes the hard drive working/recording flawlessly then out of no-where it chooses to give you the the codec errors. Simple bugs like the frame-rate displaying inproperly on the LCD screen but then properly in the menus... Simple things that still take extra time to find the simple work-arounds/fix. I mean the list is never ending. The manual that makes it look so simple while in reality it should be filed with warnings about all the fuck-up that can and WILL go wrong.

The quotes/jokes made on the set about the camera are just pure gold:

An AC calling it "Charlie Chaplin camera" because it makes the filmmaking clunking as if it was last century.

The director calling it RED bacause all the errors that flash on the screen.

The jib guy joking it's called RED because it acts like a woman on her period (sorry, gross i know).

Here, we managed to gell all that we needed to get, but you ain't talking me into using this camera again.

Patryk Rebisz
director/DP
http://www.patrykrebisz.com
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I went back through your posts, every time you ever asked for advice, you got exactly what you needed. What it looks like to me is you got in over your head, and looking at your work to date it's clear that hasn't happened for a longtime. You should have spent more time, here preparing to use the camera.

Maybe you should have started a. I'm shooting with the camera for the first time what should I know? thread.

You would have gotten all the help you needed, and would have avoided allot of hassles (just an opinion)
 
Evolve said:
Whoa lewis, we don't have a clue what happened. We weren't on set, we don't know who the DIT was or his/her experience level, nor the experience level of the other crew.

I think Steve who rented the accessories had an insight on this (you might have missed the post?) Apparently they used an inexperienced DIT according to him and there was no-one on set who knew the camera (which is what might be at the root of at least some of the problems). The main problem probably relates to what firmware they were using but we'll probably never know that...

I don't think it's particularly constructive for someone to come on to this forum and slag the camera off while being pretty unspecific about what the problems and errors were - one of the uses of this forum is that we identify specific problems and help to bring them to the attention of Red to deal with. I doubt very much that Patryk will follow this up and be more specific about what the problems were (e.g. what firmware, was it a release build, what specific error codes came up etc etc - by the way you're wrong about people not asking these questions - go back and look at the earlier posts) - it looks more like he was just venting after a frustrating day with a new camera. Plus if you post on a site with a slightly sneering tone (e.g. the lame Red "jokes") you're bound to get some kind of a reaction from all the people that are big fans of the camera & that have managed to get great footage without too many problems.
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Evolve, it's true forums are known for not being 'tone' accurate, or 'mood' friendly :)

But still, 'is this camera a joke?' is not engaging for issue solving...

I agree with all you've said, and god knows I'm not a bad guy, but I would have sat down to try and understand what went wrong. I never put my mood upfront, especially when I have to deal with serious technical issues.

Of course Patryck's crew is experienced, I mean I guess, I'm sure they manage to cut a cool clip, but in my position, and other buyers, there's a huge difference between us and the rental companies or production companies that also buy this camera. One has to understand that. Some of us won't have all the expensive backup and crew and troubleshooters should we experience issues with the Red.

We will rely on our sole experience and talent to make it a creative and profitable investment.

That's where is vital to know that this camera is a good one. And that it will do the job. We all know we'll have issues with it here and there. We've all been there, and we'll still go through nightmares. But don't tell me I invested in a piece of crap. That's insulting my intelligence. I've been following this for 2 years, a trust me I was prepared when I put my down payment in.

It's a bit easy to come and bitch when you don't know shit. Some people should do their classes before posting.

I have no problems with Red or the camera being criticized. The more the better if you ask me. But come up with real stuff, intelligent critiques, not sissy "gna gna gna"... That doesn't get us, nor Patryck, anywhere.

And we need all the inputs. Good or bad.

I would piss on Red if I found out this whole thing was bullshit. But I know it's not. I've listened to too many professionals, amateurs, lovers, companies, individuals, DP's, directors, technicians, geeks, all thos representing centuries of years of various film and HD experience, say this was an amazing and affordable piece of technology and intelligence. And I would really reconsider a few times before coming here and insult these guys telling them their camera is a joke.

My point is not about protectionnism. I'm not one of those 'gay Red toyboys' (sorry guys ;P). No my point is about perfectionnism. Honesty. It's about my life, my passion, my carreer, my income, ther very food in the mouth of my children. And you don't want to fuck with that.

And not everyone is a brilliant clever expert. There's still a chance there was morons there... We'll never know.
 
davecw said:
I think Steve who rented the accessories had an insight on this (you might have missed the post?) Apparently they used an inexperienced DIT according to him and there was no-one on set who knew the camera (which is what might be at the root of at least some of the problems). The main problem probably relates to what firmware they were using but we'll probably never know that...
Click to expand...

I did read the post but missed the inexperienced DIT part :whistling:
Although as someone else has mentioned, the most experienced DIT has 8 months on the job...


davecw said:
I don't think it's particularly constructive for someone to come on to this forum and slag the camera off while being pretty unspecific about what the problems and errors were - one of the uses of this forum is that we identify specific problems and help to bring them to the attention of Red to deal with. I doubt very much that Patryk will follow this up and be more specific about what the problems were (e.g. what firmware, was it a release build, what specific error codes came up etc etc - by the way you're wrong about people not asking these questions - go back and look at the earlier posts) - it looks more like he was just venting after a frustrating day with a new camera. Plus if you post on a site with a slightly sneering tone (e.g. the lame Red "jokes") you're bound to get some kind of a reaction from all the people that are big fans of the camera & that have managed to get great footage without too many problems.
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True the slag part, and the lack of specifics of the problems and errors. I guess my point was that we shouldn't jump to conclusions as to why those problems occurred.
And no doubt, many here have gotten great footage with relatively few problems. The other thought I had on this was that it really magnified for me that renting the camera out to people with no experience on it, ie. everyone, needs to be very thought out and prepped beforehand, perhaps even to the point (in my case) of having a half day of test shooting and backing up 'tutorial', giving people a cf card with a backup build on it, as well as changing builds and some postwork flow demo to ensure hassle-free shooting and posting. (I'm assuming that many people do this already)

Maybe we should put together a standard rental/troubleshooting manual?
 
My post wasn't intended as attack at all. Just observation. No doubt the title of the thread was also offputting.....

lewis said:
My point is not about protectionnism. I'm not one of those 'gay Red toyboys' (sorry guys ;P). No my point is about perfectionnism. Honesty. It's about my life, my passion, my carreer, my income, ther very food in the mouth of my children. And you don't want to fuck with that.
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You crack me up dude. And your candor and honesty is pretty solid. If you're ever in Toronto, you're welcome anytime to enjoy some red wine and cheese (i live near kensington market, so there's actually the possibility of a good selection)
 
And BTW anyone noticed Red created a specific "Complaint" forum hours ago... So I guess that also means it's not a problem to complaint...

I could totally see myself saying something like "Is this camera a fucking joke??? I mean yesterday we couldn't just do anything without having error messages all the time??? Anyone could help me cause I'm really starting to regret the investment!!!"

I think that's venting frustration, which is fair enough, but I'd be also trying to understand why... There's nothing in that original post about how's and whys??? Re-read it?!

It's gratuitous, flippant and judgemental Diva mood. Who needs that here?
 
Oh and I think it's totally okay to slag the camera, but do it on a generic HD forum where it's the place... Not on the very user forum where they try and understand and workout the camera issues (and where you'll get cremated in the process!)

:)
 
Evolve said:
You crack me up dude. And your candor and honesty is pretty solid. If you're ever in Toronto, you're welcome anytime to enjoy some red wine and cheese (i live near kensington market, so there's actually the possibility of a good selection)
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Hi! I know, I get a bit edgy when it come to art... :) I love everyone but I never cease to be impressed with some people's guts... Anyway... This forum is great to keep you on your toes... You learn, make mistakes, note, quote, listen, joke, insult... A sort of micro 4K civilisation being born... I love it!

And thanks for the invite! I'll definitely come and see you in Toronto! I never miss an opportunity to crack one or two at a fellow anglo canuck :)

PS: I'll bring the wine though... :P
 
Is This Arri 535 A Joke???

Is This Arri 535 A Joke???

No one told me I had to buy film???

God we had so much problems to get the footage, Kodak was nearly closed by the time we realised...

We made so many jokes with crew about that fucking camera...

"Arrividerci footage"...

"Arri gret not shooting HD"...

"Arri lee hate that camera"...

"Arri lee won't ever use it again"...
 
lewis said:
We made so many jokes with crew about that fucking camera...

"Arrividerci footage"...

"Arri gret not shooting HD"...

"Arri lee hate that camera"...

"Arri lee won't ever use it again"...
Click to expand...

LOL HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
I've only experienced problems when shooting 4K at 16:9 with build 15 (in its various iterations). Switch to 4K 2:1 and I can't crash it no matter what I point it at. Sounds like this was the likely cause of all the errors, though I stand ready to be corrected.

From our perspective we are advising clients of three main things when hiring from us:

1. Shoot 2:1 ratio if you want to use 4K, and crop 16:9 out of it if that's your target aspect ratio for final cut;

2. Audio is not ready for prime time (IMHO), so treat it as you would a film camera and record audio separately (use an onboard mic with battery if you must have a guide track, or sync to external timecode); and

3. Set ASA320 and light for daylight temperature as much as possible for the cleanest picture with the widest latitude. Everything beyond T-stop, shutter speed and focus is metadata so don't sweat it if it's a bit out as we can adjust it in post.

Once so advised we will gently remind you if you deviate from these things on your shoot, but we aren't going to force you.

We go out with the camera as a matter of course as DITs (price is rolled into our package) and provide helpful advice when needed on set such as exposing for the histogram and not your lightmeter etc for the best possible picture. I also watch out for battery levels, media levels, situations where CF might be more appropriate (vibration), making sure the batteries are double clicked onto the mount etc etc. All the little things we collectively have learned here that make us a valuable asset on set beyond having a Red One alone.

So far (touch wood) all our shoots have gone smoothly with these principles applied. I honestly can't see that changing as we basically live on this forum when we're not shooting and can suck up all the little tidbits that regular filmmakers miss! :)

This is an incredibly useful thread as long as people remain civil to one another and work to solve the issues rather than bashing - that's the heart of what makes Red so unique in the cine equipment world.

Never stop learning.

Paul
 
in reponse

in reponse

In response to the post and responses:
I am amazed to meet (for the first time that is..) a community with such terrible manners. A quite humuristic posting is responded with nasty personal remarks about the crew, a lecture about Chaplin's history etc..Really ugly people ! Mr. Kelly and RGDfilms especially !!
I was the 1stAC on this shoot so it's clear. And these are my personal remarks about the Red experience to those of you who are interested:
90% of our problem were CODEC ERROR while shooting to the RED Harddrive.
No "DIT" would be able to fix that. Same for DROP FRAMES. In both cases we lost a take, 10-15 minutes each time for changing Media and reboot and off course the break of workflow, confidence and patience on everyones end: crew, director and talent. The bottom line here is that indeed you can use the RED only with a full on support, several drives, endless tests and restricted shooting conditions. Waiting on camera is a big no no for anyone who ever worked on real "commercial" shoots. As camera man I can't keep telling the director to take 15min break once every hour. I am being asked by various RED enthusiast "did you do hand held ?" well if that is a problem then we can continue testing in shooting flower vases in mum's living room. No hand held. No Jib / crane work. Yes we were a small indie music video shoot. No we didn't have the world at our feet. The rental house messed up with several simple things we needed. And no we don't work for Sony and that whole "brand name" competition is ridiculous ! Like Sony would even care about us..
And as for the RED company I have one complaint: We can't have a confusing online forum as the source of our knowledge. I downloaded the 13 build manual from their website and learned it by heart. It is very simple. But it has no mentioning of simple things that they must highlight rather then ask me to read into thousands of forum threads that unfortunately are filled with personal issues like here. They need to take responsibility's and add the warnings to their own site and to change their "Sexy-innocent" appearance to an honest professional one. I am a punkrocker and I got plenty of that in rehersal space. I don't bring it to film set.
(one more personal remark and I'll find you and stick my Gretch up y'r Arss Mr. Kelly )
List the issues per build on the site. When I download a manual that says "Build 13" I expect it to accommodate that and not be some general blue print for a future manual. I know you guys at "RED" work hard and I am like you very enthusiastic about it but honesty is important. To say here is important that rental houses (which are the middle man) behave the same and let you go experimenting without taking the proper support. In the Past when renting CINEALTA I would have the owner of the company available for me 24/7 on his personal cellphone. It was a small indie feature and he is one of the biggest rentals in NYC. He was there for me every minute. Just in case. RED goes on long weekends. Something to think about.
There is no mention of not having audio preview on camera. That took another hr of our time on set to figure there's none.
A system that has a DROP FRAME counter on the LCD is already a problem.
As mentioned before, the LCD would say "4k" when camera's screen would approve that we are on "4k2:1" . Again a little bug that messes the workflow and brings doubts as to what is actually going on.
We haven't lost any footage that was captured but have lost several takes as I said. If it was a narrative dialog shoot it would be a disaster.
The footage looks amazing no doubt, and the RAW possibilities are well know to me from digital photography workflow.
I belive that RED is the future of filmmaking but it is not the present. Thanks for all the people who have good faith and help makeing it happen. Some of us just cant afford to do that as we believe in filmmaking as an art form. Composition.Beat. Workflow. it's an orchestra not a tech lab.
Some people mentioned 35mm as equivalent. 35mm is a simple workflow. If a magazine fails on camera it is thrown to hell because it costs too much to give it a second try. We also need to make living and don't have time to spend mummy's credit card for experiments. Welcome to NYC filmmaking.
I will wait patiently for the RED to stabilize and I can't understand why people react with such bad manners. Shame !
Thanx to THEMUSIC and SYCOPHANT for being normal..
 
P.S to visceralpsyche:
We indeed started with 4k 16:9 and only after switching to 4k2:1 the "RED" started working smooth (The LCD-monitor insisted we are still on 4K..)

Thanks,

yoni
 
Dear Yoni,

The post was not humorous don't try to sell us that. You're jokes on set about the camera was, but only if told differently.

Your post is constructive. Here's something that can hopefully be resolved or looked into. The initial posts where just whining and not even followed through when people in the start tried to help out.

I'd also like to say that it being difficult knowing certain things because it can only be achieved by visiting this forum is a problem and it's also widely discussed as one on exactly this thread. Please read it and you'll find that the discussion on this thread was mostly a healthy one.

As for the people having jokes on the behalf of you're DP and Director. I think that their approach in posting these threads brought that upon themselves and by not answering when people started to ask them what was up.... well... what to say more than who would take it serious.

Regards,


Fredrik Callinggard
 
A clear list:

A clear list:

Shooting 4k/16:9 build 13:

1. CODEC ERROR shooting on hard drive using JIB. A very professional smooth jib OP. meaning: a lost take.
2. Hand held work:too many Drop Frames = lost take
3.Even when swithching to F.C it happened once.
The repetition of these two was a killer for our first day of shoot.
Switching to 4k2:1/16:9 on day 2 made things smoother but we got another CODEC ERROR set on hand-held work. We thought it got over heated. Swithched Fan settings to "HOT" and it seemed to relax quickly.
3.No audio preview on camera. Well we all know that now. Not mentioned on manual (prove me wrong and I'll apologize to the goods of Red..)
4. The project on LCD-monitor said 4k when on camera LCD approved 4k2:1

Thanks,

yoni
 
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