Is this camera a joke?

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Since 99.9% of us are able to use it with little or no problems, remind me never to hire your crew. You guys aren't too good with cameras are you?

I guess Stephen Williams isn't too good with cameras either then because he wrote about some of REDs flaws here

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I guess Stephen Williams isn't too good with cameras either then because he wrote about some of REDs flaws here

That's Stephen Murphy. And he does point out some of the existing flaws, but also some of the issues he complains about are documented -- like the dropped frames with 4K 16:9 RC36, etc.. and will be fixed with build 16. He would have saved himself much grief by shooting 2:1 rather than 16:9. Can't really fault him though, so many actual RED OWNERS come to these forums having these same issues. Information is here, but not always right up front and easy to see, lots of stuff to search through. And that aside, no matter how you slice it, the current issues with 4K 16:9 are just that -- serious issues.

Not sure where he's coming from in regards to the comments on image quality. It's all subjective, to a certain degree, and we have no idea of what conditions he was shooting under or if he was properly exposing what he was shooting. If he lit the green screen with tungsten and there were a lot of shadows or dark colors on that tungsten-lit set, or if shot under exposed or targeting higher or lower ISOs vs. 320, the noise could have ate him alive.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Umm...Matthew, are you sure you can read? The blog you pointed at is Stephen Murphy, not Stephen Williams. I know this for a fact because Stephen Williams owns a RED.

Now to address the actual blog posting. I was going to say that he was grading off the proxies but Jeff pointed out that he shot 16:9. It does sound like he hard printed the output from RedCine and then tried to color correct that. Of course, that is not going to get you as much DR because you've started to limit the data your working from. Jeff also pointed out that we don't know if tungsten was used or not. From the images I've seen with build 16, much of the flack RED has taken about fixed noise patterns will disappear.

Matthew

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Umm...Matthew, are you sure you can read? The blog you pointed at is Stephen Murphy, not Stephen Williams. I know this for a fact because Stephen Williams owns a RED.

Now to address the actual blog posting. I was going to say that he was grading off the proxies but Jeff pointed out that he shot 16:9. It does sound like he hard printed the output from RedCine and then tried to color correct that. Of course, that is not going to get you as much DR because you've started to limit the data your working from. Jeff also pointed out that we don't know if tungsten was used or not. From the images I've seen with build 16, much of the flack RED has taken about fixed noise patterns will disappear.

Matthew

Yes, I can read...sorry about my mistake however. Tis right that it is Stephen Murphy and not Williams.

Although I think you might be wrong on Stephen Williams owning a RED.

He said this: "Most of my money comes from making people look good, hopefully all my competitors will shoot on Red."

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=30766&st=0

Scroll down this page and you'll see it.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Although I think you might be wrong on Stephen Williams owning a RED.

He said this: "Most of my money comes from making people look good, hopefully all my competitors will shoot on Red."

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=30766&st=0

I do believe if you ask Stephen you will find he did take delivery of one earlier this year. I've even got pictures of him with his Cooke 20-60 on the body.

Matthew

 

[Gunleik Groven]

YUP the cam is a jole...

Please don't use it
Please don't learn it
Please don't understand the workflow

i'm here and I travel...

Cheers!

 

[David Birdy]

This post is a great example of a few "super stars" showing what they are made of....

Please do us all a favor and work with the cameras you are comfortable with,
some people do not operate well, "out of the Box" you and your crew seem to be
in that category.

Did you have anyone prep the gear before you put it into use on the set ???

Do you and your crew always quit and go home when you have problems??



Dave

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Please do us all a favor and work with the cameras you are comfortable with,
some people do not operate well, "out of the Box" you and your crew seem to be
in that category.

In all fairness Dave, there are digital shooters out there that would be crying home to mama if they worked with film. Imagine actually having to plan your shots and rehearse a lot because you don't have unlimited resources. Many digital shooters who try film end up giving up way too early.

 

[Jason Ing]

Shit happens. Keep a balance on reality. It's a young company and technology. Red will become more and more rock solid. We'll see you in a while and then you'll be happy with it.

 

[StephenMurphy]

Not sure where he's coming from in regards to the comments on image quality. It's all subjective, to a certain degree, and we have no idea of what conditions he was shooting under or if he was properly exposing what he was shooting. If he lit the green screen with tungsten and there were a lot of shadows or dark colors on that tungsten-lit set, or if shot under exposed or targeting higher or lower ISOs vs. 320, the noise could have ate him alive.

The tests i shot were lit using all daylight light. No tungsten light was used. The footage was processed and graded by a very experienced senior colorist in a very experienced post house, Screenscene, in Dublin. They had already processed and posted several other commercials using RED so were familiar with the workflow and id worked with them before on several projects Film and Video. The conditions i was shooting the test under were perfect. The tests i shot were simple colour chart/black ref/white ref/greyscales and skintone references shot in incremental under and overexposures to see the latitude of the camera. Ive done the same tests on all the stocks I've ever used and most of the Video cameras ive used. As to wether or not i was "properly" exposing the images or not you'll have to take me at my word when i tell you i know how to use a lightmeter and a waveform to expose an image. I've been doing this for a while and i make a good living from it.
The greenscreen shoot mentioned in the blog was a seperate shoot altogether again lit with all daylight lights.
And yes I would have saved myself a lot of grief by shooting 2:1 instead of 16x9 but thats not what my client wanted. The camera is being sold as a 4K 16 x9 camera so it needs to function that way. Because of the poor experience had on that shoot that Director isn't interested in shooting on RED again until all its "known issues" have been resolved - cant say i blame him.
As i mentioned in my blog the results from the camera were to my eye very pleasing in a limited range (2 stops under to 1 stop over) provided the images weren't lifted (looked interesting at 3 stops under but too noisy). To my eye it looks like very clean 50D Super 16mm but without the highlight latitude or texture of 16mm. Along with the D20 it has given the nicest images I've seen from a video camera BUT its not 35mm - not by a long stretch - so for me its just another medium to paint in, but as i also mentioned its not a camera i will recommend to any producer or director until its fully functional; The "we're still in beta bear with us" excuse doesn't fly for me if my neck is on the line after recommending a camera that goes down during a shoot - if people are paying for a product then its "out of beta".Sorry for the ramble - its been a long day.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Stephen,

Thanks for the clarifications... What I threw out there in terms of shooting conditions was entirely hypothetical. As for the 4K 16:9 issue, you're absolutely correct that it needs to work. We can only guess as to the reasons it has been problematic, but supposedly it's fixed with the impending build 16. The 16:9 issue has been a real stumbling block here as well. I keep running into clients that want 16:9 instead of 2:1 and really need the proxy workflow, so they essentially end up shooting 3K or go for 4K 2:1 and crop the sides off in post. I've got another gig on tuesday that will deal with this same issue.

The camera is definitely beta, no matter how you look at it. Anyone who is buying one should understand this -- it's why RED has allowed reservation holders to delay purchase and delivery of their camera if desired. Anyone who owns one should make others aware of this if they're offering their camera for hire. RED has come a long way, but there are still several issues, glitches, bugs, etc..

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

The footage was processed and graded by a very experienced senior colorist in a very experienced post house, Screenscene, in Dublin. They had already processed and posted several other commercials using RED so were familiar with the workflow and id worked with them before on several projects Film and Video.

Hi Stephen, thanks for your personal feedback. it will be good to hear if Screenscene made any comments, positives or negatives, on the commercials they graded that were shot on RED?

Lim

 

[laguun]

Hi Stephen,

good to see you here.

To my eye it looks like very clean 50D Super 16mm but without the highlight latitude or texture of 16mm. Along with the D20 it has given the nicest images I've seen from a video camera BUT its not 35mm

The red -is- 35mm. Sensorsize, Optics, FOV//DOF etc are all 35mm.
I dont share your opinion, i am rather with Doug Liman, who shot his #1 boxoffice movie jumper on 35mm negative combined with 35mm red. He said that "the red footage blended perfectly with the 35mm film footage". Since we started using reds october last year that is our judgement as well.

Using 35mm with negative for decades, owning and using my and other 35mm cameras since the late 80ties, the red now seems to completly replace 35mm film here for us. The red to us is a slightly higher resolution, slightly lower latitude negative if you want so.

We often show customers footage of other people, especially the less sucessful ones to underline what we are doing different and to explain what mistakes they are making.

The "we're still in beta bear with us" excuse doesn't fly for me if my neck is on the line after recommending a camera that goes down during a shoot - if people are paying for a product then its "out of beta".Sorry for the ramble - its been a long day.

Here i fully understand your position. Red requires due, to its beta-state, dedicated people, pioneer spirit and more knowhow than hdcam or 35mm film. I am rather in the camp of those who like this, others however should wait if they are less interested in wrangling new camera technology until its easy.

Having hdcam, red and 35mm cameras to choose from in our company we make the choice every day, and i have to say that the both digital formats are taking the huge majority of the shoots and are also more popular with the customers meanwhile.

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I am rather in the camp of those who like this, others however should wait if they are less interested in wrangling new camera technology until its easy.

Easy isn't the issue here, functional is. People who get paid on other people's dime and hope to keep getting paid that way should be prudent with their choices. If a Producer recommends RED, that's one thing. The buck will stop with him. But if a DP recommends RED and things tank, you now have a very bad situation for the DP. I don't see how Mr. Murphy, in all good conscience, can recommend RED at this stage. Cheers to you Stephen for having the courage to speak the truth without being biased either way. I value your level headed input.

 

[Roberto B]

it's a pleasure to find you out here matthew.. specially on the complaints section.. after all, you have no a red one yet.. :wink:

edit
i'm just missing your avatar.. the old one preferentially.. looks familiar..

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

it's a pleasure to find you out here matthew.. specially on the complaints section.. after all, you have no a red one yet.. :wink:

edit
i'm just missing your avatar.. the old one preferentially.. looks familiar..

Judging by the broken English and fondness for my old picture, I would guess that this is Emmanual Guedes? Long time no hear. I always did like you even though we disagreed about shooting format. (Wanna go to Massachusettes and get hitched? hmy: )

Yes, I come to the REDuser.net lately since people from this forum have no problem coming over to Cinematography.com. I don't own a RED but I try to use common sense. I love film but if someone says that they had a film jam, I wouldn't assume they were inept or blame it on them.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Easy isn't the issue here, functional is. People who get paid on other people's dime and hope to keep getting paid that way should be prudent with their choices. If a Producer recommends RED, that's one thing. The buck will stop with him. But if a DP recommends RED and things tank, you now have a very bad situation for the DP. I don't see how Mr. Murphy, in all good conscience, can recommend RED at this stage. Cheers to you Stephen for having the courage to speak the truth without being biased either way. I value your level headed input.

you're right, you don't see. that's beyond obvious. but that's okay.
there are plenty of people working "in the real world" with RED, myself included. I would/will absolutely recommend the use of RED whenever possible.

And a lot of redusers are also on cinematography.com because it is camera forum.... like this one.

 

[StephenMurphy]

Hi Stephen, thanks for your personal feedback. it will be good to hear if Screenscene made any comments, positives or negatives, on the commercials they graded that were shot on RED?

Lim

Some of the screenscene team visit here occasionally so they may leave a comment.

S

 

[Roberto B]

Judging by the broken English and fondness for my old picture, I would guess that this is Emmanual Guedes? Long time no hear. I always did like you even though we disagreed about shooting format. (Wanna go to Massachusettes and get hitched? hmy: )

Yes, I come to the REDuser.net lately since people from this forum have no problem coming over to Cinematography.com. I don't own a RED but I try to use common sense. I love film but if someone says that they had a film jam, I wouldn't assume they were inept or blame it on them.

no mistakes out there.. we share the same town.. (hey, there are 4 million people over here) well, not exactly but only one of them.. sometimes the same name or account.. the same IP often slightly or sometimes extended.. but not (just as it could be) the same viewpoint.. about ###.com forums included.. btw, i'm not member there.. just sometimes.. ehehehehehe

and mr. guedes doesn't like misspellings but that one you should well know.. :watsup:

 

[Matthew W. Phillips]

no mistakes out there.. we share the same town.. (hey, there are 4 million people over here) well, not exactly but only one of them.. sometimes the same name or account.. the same IP often slightly or sometimes extended.. but not (just as it could be) the same viewpoint.. about ###.com forums included.. btw, i'm not member there.. just sometimes.. ehehehehehe

and mr. guedes doesn't like misspellings but that one you should well know.. :watsup:

Ahh, then if not Emmanual, then it must be Patrick De Sizo? Did I spell that right? I know I'm on the right track here at least! :wacko: