Is there a benefit shooting 8K Weapon for TVC's?

[steve green]

I've been trying to validate my decision to upgrade two Dragons to 8K Weapons.

I mainly do television commercials using PL glass, not doing any work in the feature world at this time. I understand the slight performance enhancement in sensitivity, and the Prores is nice, but after three years of getting my clients used to the RAW workflow, it's not a big selling point. The lens coverage (PL) for 8K is another concern, as I've got a fairly large investment in glass.

Is 8K only a benefit when shooting for large budget features, visual effects, and stills?

I try and stay on the forefront of the tech, and I'm just trying to understand where the advances in the W are going to translate to my business.

As always, any input is appreciated.

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

For me, the decision to go 8K was zero about the increased resolution and more about the character of the image that you get when using a full frame (or larger) sensor. The field of view is larger, the depth of field is more shallow, the sensitivity in low light is higher. Combine all that with the dynamic range of Dragon in 8K resolution? Shit, that's going to be some pretty footage. These things may not be good for you if you're heavily invested in S35 glass, which is fair. But those are my two cents. Also, because of the new ProRes 4k feature, I don't have to necessarily be concerned with having a computer to deal with 8K. If I want to keep things at 4K, I can easily do so.

 

[brian leisring]

based on that I would just buy a 1.4 teleconverter to get the super35 glass up to the 8K image circle. If you can afford to loose the stop from the 1.4x, that seems like the easiest way to acquire FF while still using s35 glass.

 

[Nick Morrison]

based on that I would just buy a 1.4 teleconverter to get the super35 glass up to the 8K image circle. If you can afford to loose the stop from the 1.4x, that seems like the easiest way to acquire FF while still using s35 glass.

For me, the decision to go 8K was zero about the increased resolution and more about the character of the image that you get when using a full frame (or larger) sensor. The field of view is larger, the depth of field is smaller, the sensitivity in low light is higher. Combine all that with the dynamic range of Dragon in 8K resolution? Shit, that's going to be some pretty footage. These things may not be good for you if you're heavily invested in S35 glass, which is fair. But those are my two cents. Also, because of the new ProRes 4k feature, I don't have to necessarily be concerned with having a computer to deal with 8K. If I want to keep things at 4K, I can easily do so.

I think this is all wise advice.

I agree, 8K is less about resolution (although that is HUGE)...but more about the "look" of vistavision. The wider FOV, and corresponding longer lenses, shallower DOF, and more stacked "tele" image...is just a unique way to shoot on such a sophisticated cinema camera.

Add in the better compression, and the ability to STILL shoot at 6K/5K with s35 glass...makes 8K Weapon a very compelling camera (for those that can afford it).

 

[David Mullen ASC]

But to be fair, you can match FOV generally by using a 1.5X shorter focal length on Super-35 compared to FF35 and you can match depth of field by opening up 1.5-stops, so if you want a wide-angle / shallow focus look, you'd get similar results from a 14mm Master Prime at T/1.4 on a Super-35 camera as you would a 21mm prime at T/2.0-2.8 split on a FF35 camera. And using a teleconverter to put a Super-35 lens onto a FF35 camera sort of cancels any increase in the shallowness of the depth of field because of the stop loss.

 

[Nick Morrison]

But to be fair, you can match FOV generally by using a 1.5X shorter focal length on Super-35 compared to FF35 and you can match depth of field by opening up 1.5-stops, so if you want a wide-angle / shallow focus look, you'd get similar results from a 14mm Master Prime at T/1.4 on a Super-35 camera as you would a 21mm prime at T/2.0-2.8 split on a FF35 camera. And using a teleconverter to put a Super-35 lens onto a FF35 camera sort of cancels any increase in the shallowness of the depth of field because of the stop loss.

True. But on the flip side, shooting VV with fast glass can give you a FOV even shallower than Vantage Ones (T1 at S35):

24mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 16mm T0.8 (s35)
35mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 24mm T0.8 (s35)
50mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 35mm T0.8 (s35)
85mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 55mm T0.8 (s35)

Also VV FOV generally has you shooting on longer glass (I can imagine 2-cam interviews being at 50/135 or 85/180, instead of the more traditional 35/85 on s35).

So...there are positives too!

 

[Paris Remillard]

True. But on the flip side, shooting VV with fast glass can give you a FOV even shallower than Vantage Ones (T1 at S35):

24mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 16mm T0.5 (s35)
35mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 24mm T0.5 (s35)
50mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 35mm T0.5 (s35)
85mm @ 1.4 (VV) = 55mm T0.5 (s35)

Also VV FOV generally has you shooting on longer glass (I can imagine 2-cam interviews being at 50/135 or 85/180, instead of the more traditional 35/85 on s35).

So...there are positives too!

Not trying to be a jerk at all, but I think the math would be more like T/0.85 if it's a stop and a half less than T/1.4 (And if my math is right the difference in size between the 6k and 8k sensors is only around 1.3x as opposed to 1.5x, so the DOF gain is a bit less). And, were there the room to use one on Reds, a speed booster would get you pretty close to those numbers. So on any of the newer Sony options, like the f55 and FS7 you could get almost the same look optically, (since the E-mount takes a speed booster). Or speaking of Sony, it's exactly the same look optically as you currently get with the A7s and A7r II. All you get is less depth of field and, in the case of Weapon, more resolution. The look isn't going to be that different as as far as the sensor goes. It will have whatever characteristics each individual lens has, as is always the case. But shooting a 50mm on s35 vs. an 85mm on FF35 will only give you shallower DOF at the same stop. And whatever the differences are in the characteristics of those individual lenses. It's exactly the same as the difference between shooting on a 5d and a 7d. There's very little difference visually/optically other than DOF.
I do, in some situations, like being able to get that slight edge of 3-dimentionality of shallower DOF on wide shots, which shooting wide open on fast lenses on a FF sensor allows. But to actually get to a useable stop on close ups, the sensor will have to be a couple of stops more sensitive to be able to stop down and not get more noise. And yes, you can down rez to get smaller noise if you do push the ISO, but then you've lost the benefit of the higher resolution. So it's kind of a wash to me.
I'm not against FF or 8k at all. In fact I'd love it for my travel work because there are more fast wide angle options with small, cheap, light stills lenses. I just think that people are thinking that it's going to look different than it will.

 

[Brett Reynolds]

The great thing about the 8k sensor is you can shoot any aspect ratio you want!

 

[PatrickFaith]

8k for sports, VR & reality will start picking up soon. Once you allow the consumer to pick an area of a shot and move the viewport/frame around the entire pixel count game changes. Also right now I have this bundle of wires for my broadcasting system that is connected to my dragon (the red broadcast module is interesting, but just didn't work out for me for my streaming tv stuff). I think it will take some time, but I'm hoping to collapse two or three broadcasting standalone boxes I use now, eventually into my weapon.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Not trying to be a jerk at all, but I think the math would be more like T/0.85 if it's a stop and a half less than T/1.4 (And if my math is right the difference in size between the 6k and 8k sensors is only around 1.3x as opposed to 1.5x, so the DOF gain is a bit less). And, were there the room to use one on Reds, a speed booster would get you pretty close to those numbers. So on any of the newer Sony options, like the f55 and FS7 you could get almost the same look optically, (since the E-mount takes a speed booster). Or speaking of Sony, it's exactly the same look optically as you currently get with the A7s and A7r II. All you get is less depth of field and, in the case of Weapon, more resolution. The look isn't going to be that different as as far as the sensor goes. It will have whatever characteristics each individual lens has, as is always the case. But shooting a 50mm on s35 vs. an 85mm on FF35 will only give you shallower DOF at the same stop. And whatever the differences are in the characteristics of those individual lenses. It's exactly the same as the difference between shooting on a 5d and a 7d. There's very little difference visually/optically other than DOF.
I do, in some situations, like being able to get that slight edge of 3-dimentionality of shallower DOF on wide shots, which shooting wide open on fast lenses on a FF sensor allows. But to actually get to a useable stop on close ups, the sensor will have to be a couple of stops more sensitive to be able to stop down and not get more noise. And yes, you can down rez to get smaller noise if you do push the ISO, but then you've lost the benefit of the higher resolution. So it's kind of a wash to me.
I'm not against FF or 8k at all. In fact I'd love it for my travel work because there are more fast wide angle options with small, cheap, light stills lenses. I just think that people are thinking that it's going to look different than it will.

Didn't take it as jerky at all!

But yeah, you pretty much nailed it. Its 5D vs 7D. Except you can use it as either when you need. Which is cool. I think its another great creative tool.

Already at 6K on Dragon, our interviews have jumped from a 35mm/85mm (A/B) cam (usually 4K on Scarlet)....to 50mm/135mm 6KHD on Dragon. That's a big difference, especially for small, simple interviews.

We'd never even pulled out the 135 for an interview before...until Dragon...

Can't imagine how long the glass would get at 8K....

 

[Michael Ou]

I would say. . .Yup

 

[Jamie Forbush]

My thoughts are exactly in line with the author of this thread, Steve. I'm a big fan of the master prime set which is S35. I have never seen a set of glass that can do what I need like master primes. As you can imagine, it's a big investment. I am upgrading to weapon which comes with the 6K dragon sensor. I will get all the benefits of the new CF weapon but I'm trying to justify the 8K sensor upgrade while using S35 glass. If I can truly crop to 6K and get better performance and look than using the native 6K dragon sensor, perhaps it's worth the cost to upgrade. I'm worried about cropping and losing DOF since there will be less physical area of the sensor used if cropped.

 

[Nick Morrison]

My thoughts are exactly in line with the author of this thread, Steve. I'm a big fan of the master prime set which is S35. I have never seen a set of glass that can do what I need like master primes. As you can imagine, it's a big investment. I am upgrading to weapon which comes with the 6K dragon sensor. I will get all the benefits of the new CF weapon but I'm trying to justify the 8K sensor upgrade while using S35 glass. If I can truly crop to 6K and get better performance and look than using the native 6K dragon sensor, perhaps it's worth the cost to upgrade. I'm worried about cropping and losing DOF since there will be less physical area of the sensor used if cropped.

Vista Vision cropped to 6K should be very similar to Dragon 6K - except w/ lower compression, 1/2 stop better in shadows, and finer tuned OLPFs.

 

[Paris Remillard]

It's the same sensor, just in a larger cut of the wafer, right? So 6k of it should be exactly the same size.

 

[Nick Morrison]

It's the same sensor, just in a larger cut of the wafer, right? So 6k of it should be exactly the same size.

Yup

 

[Stacey Spears]

We'd never even pulled out the 135 for an interview before...until Dragon...

Can't imagine how long the glass would get at 8K....

I was pretty excited about the Zeiss Otus 85mm for interviews on Dragon at 6k HD. Now its looking a little wide for 8k. Hoping the new cooling system means I can get closer and not hear the fan.

 

[Maik Müller]

I've been trying to validate my decision to upgrade two Dragons to 8K Weapons.

I mainly do television commercials using PL glass, not doing any work in the feature world at this time. I understand the slight performance enhancement in sensitivity, and the Prores is nice, but after three years of getting my clients used to the RAW workflow, it's not a big selling point. The lens coverage (PL) for 8K is another concern, as I've got a fairly large investment in glass.

Is 8K only a benefit when shooting for large budget features, visual effects, and stills?

I try and stay on the forefront of the tech, and I'm just trying to understand where the advances in the W are going to translate to my business.

The bigger sensor is about the look and resolution. It depends on the images you want to shoot. Are those going to be used in a TVC or big budget movies doesn't matter, finances aside.

That VV-sensor doesn't come with drawbacks, you can always shoot it like a standard-WEAPON/EPIC when cropped at 6k.

But it gives you that advantage to go "bigger". Using that full sensor will make you change your selection of focal-lengths and/or distance to your subjects. Those two things change the look (the DOF and all that stuff). You can use a 50 but with a wider FOV, while keeping the DOF of that 50. You can get wider shots with less distorting lenses and you can use "beauty"-lenses like a 135mm more often. Of course you can get wider shots on UWA too. Landscapes with something like a Zeiss 15mm on VV will be something really beautiful. Another way to look at it, that VV-sensor gives the wider FOV like anamorphic does, but without the side-effects of squeezing/de-squeezing.

It's like going from APS-C to FF, but this time it's wider than FF. We all have seen MF-photography too...

That increase of resolution gives a lot more room for stabilizing, re-framing, VFX, VR, noise-reduction and so on. It might even be a great starting point for single-camera 3D@4k.

Man i would love to shoot this dream of a sensor.

 

[Jamie Forbush]

Vista Vision cropped to 6K should be very similar to Dragon 6K - except w/ lower compression, 1/2 stop better in shadows, and finer tuned OLPFs.

That makes sense and sounds good. So in trying to understand, are you saying that the 8K sensor cropped to 6K is going to utilize the same physical size area as the 6K S35 dragon sensor? And with that, will get a 1/2 stop better along with better compression? So I'm assuming if that's correct, I can still use a 25mm master prime and have it hit the full area of the sensor cropped at 6K?

 

[Jamie Forbush]

Same or better DOF at 6K also?

 

[Maik Müller]

Same or better DOF at 6K also?

DOF doesn't change. Dragon 8k cropped to 6k is the same as Dragon 6k on EPIC and WEAPON.

DOF doesn't even change automatically with the sensor-size. A bigger sensor will give you a wider FOV compared to S35, but with unchanged DOF. DOF will stay the same as long as you are using identical focal lengths and focus at identical distances. What changes in reality is the way you are using your lenses, how you frame and the focus distances. Example, a shot you would have made with a 50 on S35 will force you to go closer with that 50 or switch to a 85. And that is what can give you the shallower DOF (which is not always better).