I am going to return my copy of DaVinci to B&H as it is now worthless

[Hans von Sonntag]

And you know that because...?

Because it's obvious hat meaningful colour correction will be part of the more advanced NLEs. Do you think that Adobe acquired Iridas just to implement SpeedGrade in their suite? The times that a colour timing application in a bundle like we had it with Color and FCP is over. Color is EOL, so will be be SpeedGrade. The technology, however, will have an extended life in Premier Pro, AE, or already has in FCP-X.

Actually, don't you think that Lustre will finally live within Smoke as a new module? Not unlikely, really. And what is going to happen to Scratch? Would you be thinking of buying Scratch if you were in a market for a finishing application?

Mid-End grading programs don't have a bright future anymore. Have they been the big talk 5 years ago is now convenient finishing the story. No one wants to do roundtripping or tedious re-copnforming if all can be done in an NLE.

I'm pretty sure that Smoke will soon get real competitors, pricewise as well as regarding tool set and productivity.

All this leads me to the conclusion that BM does not see Resolve as a cash-cow with a bright future, at least I would not. They might have seen this differently when they acquired DaVinci. But time changed.

Lastly, Resolve has some good technology incorporated. Seeing that colour correction alone is not enough anymore BM eventually is developing a successor of Resolve, an application that is much closer to Smoke, needing tons of BM hardware. OK, that's pure speculation but possible, nonetheless.

Hans

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

hans, you have smoke. are you now doing it all in one application? (editing, grading, finishing)
or do you split things up and use smoke as a finishing tool?
(i am really intersted in smoke)

 

[Ivan G]

Black magic has become a slaughter house. I applaud them for the products they've released that past year. These products are beyond affordable that would of cost easily 50x more. I have to agree with Rob though, but from the way BM has been doing business, I'm not surprised about the free release either. Did they replace a CEO in the past few years?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

hans, you have smoke. are you now doing it all in one application? (editing, grading, finishing)
or do you split things up and use smoke as a finishing tool?
(i am really intersted in smoke)

Yes. All in one application.

Colour correction is not RT, no VFX is RT inside Smoke, only the sound tools are RT. But with some experience you can be very fast, much faster than NLE, VFX, CC and back to NLE plus no hardcore re-conforms anymore that made my life often a mess. All over now.

This said, Smoke's Colour Warper is a very good colour manipulating tool but not meant for quick grading as you are used to in dedicated CC apps. CW has been designed for typical problems you find when creating realistic comps such as matching colour values of different shots. But you can accomplish all you can accomplish elsewhere - it's just not as quick.

You can start editing inside Smoke like with any other NLE. You can conform from AAF and XML or EDL and you can export EDL and OMF (that you can also import).

Insides Smoke you can fix all the typical problems that one faces: conforming, grading, 3D comping incl. the best keyer in the universe, de-noising, re-graining, selective sharpening, realistic de-focus, smooth stabilizing, very good tracking, camera shaking, 2 and 3D titeling, masking, 3D re-lighting (not just Knoll lens-flares), rotoscoping, etc....and last but not least to a certain extend good sound designing.

Basically Smoke is an NLE on steroids that needs a powerful workstation, fast Array and an AJA Kona3 and good monitoring. But for meaningful editing you need that anyway.

You chave to pay a yearly subscription fee that is around 1.300 EUR. So far Autodesk has impressed me with their rapid development and half yearly upgrades. They seem to be very serious about Smoke.

Anyone complaining about subscription fees and heavy prices tags should remind him/herself that good software need a lot of work and talent to be developed. There is a reason why an Epic costs what is costs and there is a reason why good software is not cheap either. It's unclear for me how someone can develop great software and then "sell" it for free. The BM Resolve Lite thing is not necessarily a good move, IMHO. It somewhat trashes the value of colour timing, at least takes away the speciality scent of film grading. Happens a long time ago on the print side. Perhaps it's a good thing though.


Anyway, my Red-Smoke combo is a daily joy.



Hans

 

[Dan Kanes]

Why is Davinci Resolve Lite Free?

It's a Pre-emptive Strike against Technicolor - and really anyone else who might be looking to introduce a One-Light Timing suite.

I'm pretty sure Technicolor was developing a software color suite for ProSumers.

I still hope they do.

The more tools available, the better.

 

[jake blackstone]

Why is Davinci Resolve Lite Free?

It's a Pre-emptive Strike against Technicolor - and really anyone else who might be looking to introduce a One-Light Timing suite.

I'm pretty sure Technicolor was developing a software color suite for ProSumers.

I still hope they do.

The more tools available, the better.

So, now Resolve is a prosumer tool? I guess it's just part of a course, that demonstrates the value of perception. And BM is the one to blame...
I wonder, if you think, that developing a professional grading suite is a trivial matter? Technicolor came up with some lame LUT for 5D and, voila, they are in the color grading software business.
If that's the case, then Adobe shareholders have a hell of a class action lawsuit against those, who authorized the purchase of Speedgrade...
And finally, Technicolor uses Resolve and Lustre in their own workflow. I don't see this changing anytime soon...

 

[jake blackstone]

Because it's obvious hat meaningful colour correction will be part of the more advanced NLEs. Do you think that Adobe acquired Iridas just to implement SpeedGrade in their suite? The times that a colour timing application in a bundle like we had it with Color and FCP is over. Color is EOL, so will be be SpeedGrade. The technology, however, will have an extended life in Premier Pro, AE, or already has in FCP-X.

Actually, don't you think that Lustre will finally live within Smoke as a new module? Not unlikely, really. And what is going to happen to Scratch? Would you be thinking of buying Scratch if you were in a market for a finishing application?

Mid-End grading programs don't have a bright future anymore. Have they been the big talk 5 years ago is now convenient finishing the story. No one wants to do roundtripping or tedious re-copnforming if all can be done in an NLE.

I'm pretty sure that Smoke will soon get real competitors, pricewise as well as regarding tool set and productivity.

All this leads me to the conclusion that BM does not see Resolve as a cash-cow with a bright future, at least I would not. They might have seen this differently when they acquired DaVinci. But time changed.

Lastly, Resolve has some good technology incorporated. Seeing that colour correction alone is not enough anymore BM eventually is developing a successor of Resolve, an application that is much closer to Smoke, needing tons of BM hardware. OK, that's pure speculation but possible, nonetheless.

Hans

Just I as thought Hans. You have the same information as I do- we have none
Some things I agree, some I don't. But this discussion is getting out of the scope of this discussion.
And finally, I too can't wait for the Lustre inside the Smoke. That would be incredible!!!

 

[Dan Kanes]

Sorry Jake - I think you misunderstood me.

No, I don't think there is anything Trivial or Prosumer About creating a Grading Suite - or that Resolve is "Simply" a Prosumer Tool.

But - Can you imagine a company trying to create a $50 or even $100 software that allows you to do a One-Light Pass in a way that one might do that with Lightroom for photos?

From a Developer's Perspective:
What is the incentive to pay a programming team to create software that does the same thing, only with less power, and less options than Davinci Resolve Lite - which by the way is available for free.

This is what I mean by a Pre-Emptive Strike.

So - if technicolor were to pay developers to create "DP-Lights 'Lite'" software that would run on a Mac or PC - what would be their incentive other than market penetration?

Maybe you can explain that to me from a business standpoint.

And yes - I would Consider Davinci Resolve Lite to be considered a "Prosumer Option" because it is free - and everyone knows that "ProSumer" is about being "too cheap" to go professional. So, really it's like a gateway drug - it lets more people get exposure to a color correction suite.

Hopefully I haven't offended you - I am in no way trying to take away from the work colorists do, or software designers do. I am fully aware of that.

Resolve Lite is sort of an "Atom Bomb"

The same can be said of the Black Magic Hyperdeck. They released something at the "Lowest Possible Price Point" - smart buyers buy on needs, not price-point alone. But there are a lot of people who just Buzz something because it's cheap.

Hyperdeck is their "atom bomb" against Atomos (and sound devices, etc. etc. etc.) Although - I find it to be impotent since it doesn't do Pro-Res - which is what most "Cheap" people want.

As for the Technicolor Software - I am referring to something OTHER than the DSLR Lut they created. I was part of a Survey in which the notion of a single-pass "Prosumer" grading suite was discussed as a possible future Technicolor Product. That's where that came from.

 

[jake blackstone]

Sorry Jake - I think you misunderstood me.

No, I don't think there is anything Trivial or Prosumer About creating a Grading Suite - or that Resolve is "Simply" a Prosumer Tool.

But - Can you imagine a company trying to create a $50 or even $100 software that allows you to do a One-Light Pass in a way that one might do that with Lightroom for photos?

From a Developer's Perspective:
What is the incentive to pay a programming team to create software that does the same thing, only with less power, and less options than Davinci Resolve Lite - which by the way is available for free.

This is what I mean by a Pre-Emptive Strike.

So - if technicolor were to pay developers to create "DP-Lights 'Lite'" software that would run on a Mac or PC - what would be their incentive other than market penetration?

Maybe you can explain that to me from a business standpoint.

And yes - I would Consider Davinci Resolve Lite to be considered a "Prosumer Option" because it is free - and everyone knows that "ProSumer" is about being "too cheap" to go professional. So, really it's like a gateway drug - it lets more people get exposure to a color correction suite.

Hopefully I haven't offended you - I am in no way trying to take away from the work colorists do, or software designers do. I am fully aware of that.

Resolve Lite is sort of an "Atom Bomb"

The same can be said of the Black Magic Hyperdeck. They released something at the "Lowest Possible Price Point" - smart buyers buy on needs, not price-point alone. But there are a lot of people who just Buzz something because it's cheap.

Hyperdeck is their "atom bomb" against Atomos (and sound devices, etc. etc. etc.) Although - I find it to be impotent since it doesn't do Pro-Res - which is what most "Cheap" people want.

As for the Technicolor Software - I am referring to something OTHER than the DSLR Lut they created. I was part of a Survey in which the notion of a single-pass "Prosumer" grading suite was discussed as a possible future Technicolor Product. That's where that came from.

No offense taken Dan. No worries.
I just find it interesting, that no more, than only 3 days after the release of free version of Resolve, which I may add, has all of the very sophisticated technology under the hood, that it's big brother has, Resolve now is considered to be a prosumer product. It is still the same great software, that highest level of professionals use today, including Company 3. I have no intention to stop using it. Unfortunately, I feel, that BM in one fell swoop managed to lose all of the marketing mystique of Resolve. I want to be clear- BM has every legal right to do release a free version of Resolve. Resolve development team working very hard to bring new features, that users clamor. Support is simply second to none. And yet, I keep thinking, that somehow, in some way, may be just marketing-wise, BM has let Resolve users down. As I already said, now I do a lot of remote grading. Many of those remote producers pay an inordinate amount of attention to the "labels". They insist on foreign directors and DPs, they want foreign colorists as well. And they want the latest in tech too. Unless it's Alexa or Epic, they are not interested. Like it or not, it's just a reality. And frankly, local US producers are not that different. So, why do I tell this story? Release of free Resolve will directly affect many users around the world. I can be the best colorist out there, but if I'm using, what's perceived a "prosumer" or cheap tool, I don't stand a chance. Those producers will insist on using Baselight, Nucoda or Lustre. Society can keep saying, that it's what's inside, is what counts, but at the end everyone wants to date a model. And no amount of talent will change that perception.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

No offense taken Dan. No worries.
I just find it interesting, that no more, than only 3 days after the release of free version of Resolve, which I may add, has all of the very sophisticated technology under the hood, that it's big brother has, Resolve now is considered to be a prosumer product. It is still the same great software, that highest level of professionals use today, including Company 3. I have no intention to stop using it. Unfortunately, I feel, that BM in one fell swoop managed to lose all of the marketing mystique of Resolve. I want to be clear- BM has every legal right to do release a free version of Resolve. Resolve development team working very hard to bring new features, that users clamor. Support is simply second to none. And yet, I keep thinking, that somehow, in some way, may be just marketing-wise, BM has let Resolve users down. As I already said, now I do a lot of remote grading. Many of those remote producers pay an inordinate amount of attention to the "labels". They insist on foreign directors and DPs, they want foreign colorists as well. And they want the latest in tech too. Unless it's Alexa or Epic, they are not interested. Like it or not, it's just a reality. And frankly, local US producers are not that different. So, why do I tell this story? Release of free Resolve will directly affect many users around the world. I can be the best colorist out there, but if I'm using, what's perceived a "prosumer" or cheap tool, I don't stand a chance. Those producers will insist on using Baselight, Nucoda or Lustre. Society can keep saying, that it's what's inside, is what counts, but at the end everyone wants to date a model. And no amount of talent will change that perception.

+1 You obviously live in the same world, and are aware of the same realities, as I. As another example, Lightwave has a much better rendering engine than most 3D apps, yet, because it is cheap, it is viewed as a low-bugdet solution. But free is about as low as you can go.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

...it is unavoidable that customers look at the constantly lowering cost of the equipment you use and equate that value with your value. When the equipment is worth less, you're worth less, regardless of how good you are...

Doesn't this seem fair? The intangible value of your talent has some monetary value to the customer, and that is independent of the equipment you use. But when the COST of the equipment you use has gone down exponentially, and you used to include that cost in your rates, then your rate needs to go down as well. You are paying less for the equipment. Pass on the savings. No? In the past, the high equipment costs created a smaller pool of 'talent' because the larger population just couldn't get to the equipment to even train themselves on it. Perhaps that allowed you to price your intangible talent higher (demand / supply), but now the number of people who are capable has also gone up, so you may have to price it less.

This is democratization, and its one of those things that those who are not on the boat are happy that its still docked and taking passengers, while those that are already on it want the boat to get the hell out before more people get onboard. That said, when a company sells a 100K product and then within a short cycle bumps it down to less than 10K, it'll hurt all those who bought it at a higher price, and never got a chance to pay it off.

I'm not being critical here, but actively trying to figure out business models that can be sustained, taking into account the new reality.

 

[Paul Russell]

Advancing tech has always driven this debate. 35 years ago, when I first started work, word processors were non-existent, but now they are ubiquitous. Does that mean that the cost of a good writer has gone down? Not at all, and in real terms good copy is still in demand and commands a premium, either in advertising or journalism. And the amount of absolute rubbish copy that we are bombarded with merely serves to show how good the real deal is.

Do you remember when synthesisers were first invented and musicians were claiming that the new tech would put them out of work? Instead they became an integral part of pop music, and even spawned a few new genres of their own.

As well as that, consumer's needs have become more sophisticated. We would no longer accept an annual report hammered out on a manual typewriter. We would scorn a presentation given on transparent sheets with an OHP. Although I would sit through a presentation like that if the presenter was talented, articulate and speaking about something that really interested me. Some of the best presentations on TED use hardly any slides at all, if any.

The people who have survived this pace of change have done so by a) staying at the cutting edge, b) focusing on what they are really good at, where their talent is, and c) finding ways to build revenue from it.

These days you have to constantly reinvent yourself to stay afloat. The days of learn-a-trade-for-life are over.

 

[jake blackstone]

Yes, one can learn new tricks, get better at the craft, expand capabilities, offer more for less, work faster etc. But the sad truth is, most clients only want what's the latest and the coolest. They want Epics and Alexas, they want Baselights and Pablos. They couldn't care less, that tools offered by you are perfectly adequate and that you're are perfectly suited for a job. They don't want adequate, they want what's perceived to be the best at the moment and they want exclusive. They want to feel special. And like it or not, free will never be that. Free is not exclusive.
DaVinci used to mean just that- the best, most exclusive, it had a certain mystique. Unfortunately, BM doesn't seem to care about this anymore. That is why Resolve now being perceived as a prosumer tool. Marketing matters. Perception matters. It just does...

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Yes, one can learn new tricks, get better at the craft, expand capabilities, offer more for less, work faster etc. But the sad truth is, most clients only want what's the latest and the coolest. They want Epics and Alexas, they want Baselights and Pablos. They couldn't care less, that tools offered by you are perfectly adequate and that you're are perfectly suited for a job. They don't want adequate, they want what's perceived to be the best at the moment and they want exclusive. They want to feel special. And like it or not, free will never be that. Free is not exclusive.
DaVinci used to mean just that- the best, most exclusive, it had a certain mystique. Unfortunately, BM doesn't seem to care about this anymore. That is why Resolve now being perceived as a prosumer tool. Marketing matters. Perception matters. It just does...

I guess my thinking is - why rely on the branding created by the equipment manufacturer for their equipment? Shouldn't talent create its own branding, its own aura of exclusivity if you will? Giving away that power to a manufacturer makes one a victim to their fortunes... and perhaps this situation demonstrates it best. If talent is not building a personal brand, won't it face commoditization at one point or another? And it does seem like the points are getting further and further compressed in time.

 

[Paul Russell]

Jake, you keep talking as if Da Vinci is the pinnacle of tech. It's not, because tech is always advancing. If you want 4K support, multiple GPUs etc, you can't use Resolve Lite.

It still takes bundles of skill, years of learning and bags of talent to use it. Not to mention the control surface, the calibrated monitors, the knowledge of frame rates and output methods etc. That's where your premium is.

Consumers/Prosumers can barely rattle together the money to get Magic Bullet Looks, let alone put the investment into monitors, control surfaces, hours of learning and 'the eyes'.

But if you put yourself in the mindset of valuing yourself with your hardware, all you are doing is cheapening your own value in your head, where the most important perception needs to be. The hourly rate of a post house used to include the massive investment in Smoke, Flame, Henry, Silicon Graphics Workstations (showing my age now), etc. Now it's more about recovering the running costs of rent, investment, talent and making a profit.

A good artist can always make money. The fact that paint was cheap and ubiquitous never stopped Picasso from making a shedload of cash. You are the talent, that's where your revenue model is. And when you get sick of flipping those spheres around, you'll still have your eye, so you could be guiding a team of kids all using the lower end of the software, while you supervise and make far more money by taking on more projects at competitive rates. See what I'm saying? Cheaper tech is an opportunity for you to build a new market and a self sustaining company based on your skills.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

J...Silicon Graphics Workstations...

I worked for Softimage when their software suite was ported to low cost Windows NT machines (relatively speaking) and watched Silicon Graphics die a slow but sure death. It was a very valuable lesson learnt.

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake, you keep talking as if Da Vinci is the pinnacle of tech. It's not, because tech is always advancing. If you want 4K support, multiple GPUs etc, you can't use Resolve Lite.

It still takes bundles of skill, years of learning and bags of talent to use it. Not to mention the control surface, the calibrated monitors, the knowledge of frame rates and output methods etc. That's where your premium is.

Consumers/Prosumers can barely rattle together the money to get Magic Bullet Looks, let alone put the investment into monitors, control surfaces, hours of learning and 'the eyes'.

But if you put yourself in the mindset of valuing yourself with your hardware, all you are doing is cheapening your own value in your head, where the most important perception needs to be. The hourly rate of a post house used to include the massive investment in Smoke, Flame, Henry, Silicon Graphics Workstations (showing my age now), etc. Now it's more about recovering the running costs of rent, investment, talent and making a profit.

A good artist can always make money. The fact that paint was cheap and ubiquitous never stopped Picasso from making a shedload of cash. You are the talent, that's where your revenue model is. And when you get sick of flipping those spheres around, you'll still have your eye, so you could be guiding a team of kids all using the lower end of the software, while you supervise and make far more money by taking on more projects at competitive rates. See what I'm saying? Cheaper tech is an opportunity for you to build a new market and a self sustaining company based on your skills.

You need to forget about all this "artist is the king, talent rises to the top" etc. and come down to reality. I work in a commercial market with world class ad agencies. They couldn't care less about you and your talent. All they want is exclusivity and trendiness. I'm not saying, that those with established connections will not be able to continue. Some will, but many will not, unless they continue to dazzle them with the latest in buzz-word tech. That's as simple as that. So, keep telling yourself, that you're just as good as the shop, that has the latest in tech. I hope that makes you feel better, because ad agencies will never work with what considered a prosumer-type gear. End of story...
And you actually think, that people buy art based on talent of the artist? When was the last time you went to the gallery opening? Modern art is nothing without the marketing. The better marketing, the more expensive the art.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Yes, one can learn new tricks, get better at the craft, expand capabilities, offer more for less, work faster etc. But the sad truth is, most clients only want what's the latest and the coolest. They want Epics and Alexas, they want Baselights and Pablos. They couldn't care less, that tools offered by you are perfectly adequate and that you're are perfectly suited for a job. They don't want adequate, they want what's perceived to be the best at the moment and they want exclusive. They want to feel special. And like it or not, free will never be that. Free is not exclusive.
DaVinci used to mean just that- the best, most exclusive, it had a certain mystique. Unfortunately, BM doesn't seem to care about this anymore. That is why Resolve now being perceived as a prosumer tool. Marketing matters. Perception matters. It just does...

+! Sooo true... How many times I have lost a comping gig cause they rather get it done on a FLAME*? If only they knew that I run CIRCLES around the flame dude and we get the same job done in a quarter of the time... oh well....


Now, if I had a FLAME* .... ;-)

 

[jake blackstone]

+! Sooo true... How many times I have lost a comping gig cause they rather get it done on a FLAME*? If only they knew that I run CIRCLES around the flame dude and we get the same job done in a quarter of the time... oh well....


Now, if I had a FLAME* .... ;-)

Unfortunately Franky, Autodesk is stupid. For some unexplained reason, they insist on charging for their software. I guess they didn't get the memo, that now all software has to be free

 

[Paul Russell]

Jake, I am in reality.

I spent 15 years working in world class ad agencies in Asia. My perception of what went on from the inside of those ad agencies differs greatly from your perception from the other side - isn't that always the case?

For example, I remember scripting the Web Without Wires commercial for McCann Erickson around 2001 or thereabouts - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUh1OJLJOgM). The Creative Director (Scott Brazil) insisted, and got his way, on using Oliver Stone to direct. Stone didn't bring the latest tech to the table, in fact he shot most of the ads on a mixture of 35mm and 16mm film cameras. The ad cost over $3.5 million to produce.

Ad agencies will work with whoever the CD and the Producer like the most. They want their egos stroking, they want awards, they want happy clients, and they want it all yesterday, even if they don't know what they want. The hardware is irrelevant.