I am going to return my copy of DaVinci to B&H as it is now worthless

[Rob Ruffo]

Because what I thought was worth $1000 is evidently now worth $0.

Because so many people now have Davinci free - I'd say that mid-level color correction will shortly descend into a minimum-wage job.

I don't think anyone should thank Black Magic, as they simply screwed over their paying customers - they should return their software or sell it on ebay, or maybe even think about a class-action lawsuit to get their wasted $1000 back if they, like me, bought recently.

The guys at Black Magic are off their rockers, and not in a good way like Jim. He REWARDS paying customers.

Driving this business, any aspect of it, down the unpaid gutter is not "democratization" - it is turning professions into hobbies that only the very rich will be able to pursue.

 

[M.Halsell]

But the full version supports:
* multiple GPUs
* multiple RED Rocket cards
* noise reduction
* 2K or 4K and stereoscopic 3D grading
among some of the outstanding features of the paid version.

 

[Luis Otero]

I can understand Rob's point of view; he has valid concerns.

Now, just imagine the people that bought DaVince for $250,000 just right before BMD acquired them... They must have felt like @&!@*...!!!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Rob, I could be wrong about this, but I think BM responded to customers who said they didn't need all the features of Resolve (which M. Halsell laid out) but did need more nodes and perhaps an easier way to integrate with Avid pipelines.

Multiple GPUs is a BIG deal for a lot of people. So, I don't think it will be worthless in the long run.

By the way, can I have you on speed dial next weekend? I'm going to be shooting a fun little side project up there and just in case we get stuck and need any gear in a pinch, I'm looking for contacts in Montreal.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

But the full version supports:
* multiple GPUs
* multiple RED Rocket cards
* noise reduction
* 2K or 4K and stereoscopic 3D grading
among some of the outstanding features of the paid version.

I only have one GPU, one Red Rocket. The noise reduction is crap compared to Neat Video. I have never, ever seen a 2K or 4K job go through the pipe, nor anything in 3D - just not my market - and a tiny market irrelevant to the vast majority of users. There are no other unique features. I repeat, Black Magic has burned its paying customers, and at the same time burned themselves out of the software business. I will try to offload my copy (if I can even find someone to buy it - it's worthless now), and I would never buy software from them again. All I ever bought was a puny Intensity Pro card for $120 - now they are losing $1000 of my dollars.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, I could be wrong about this, but I think BM responded to customers who said they didn't need all the features of Resolve (which M. Halsell laid out) but did need more nodes and perhaps an easier way to integrate with Avid pipelines.

Multiple GPUs is a BIG deal for a lot of people. So, I don't think it will be worthless in the long run.

By the way, can I have you on speed dial next weekend? I'm going to be shooting a fun little side project up there and just in case we get stuck and need any gear in a pinch, I'm looking for contacts in Montreal.

I just PM'ed you our number. Amber and I hope to hear from you.

However, I respectfully disagree when you say that BM responded to "customers" who needed whatever. If all you do is download something for free, you are not a customer, you are a freeloader. Few businesses have ever been successfully built on freeloaders. What next? Ads for online poker and penis enlargement on the BM site? They'll need them if all they're selling is $120 Intensity Pro cards while throwing their core products away for free. What do they care what freeloaders want?

And BTW - they burned not just me, but previously, as mentioned by Steve, their Unix buyers AND all other color correction software developers. They have just put them all out of business.

This level of irresponsible idiocy is unprecedented. If BM were publicly traded the CEO would be looking at criminal penalties from shareholders.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I understand your concern Rob. Things are bound to get a lot more competitive and rates will take a hit. You are going to have to work harder to get new clients than in the past. However, if you are saying that any unskilled noob with a free piece of software will be able to effectively compete with your work product, then I'm afraid you need to raise your game.

Polish up that reel and work hard. If you have the skills and a pedigree then you should be able to weather this. Keep your chin up.

Speaking of reels and resumes, are you tagging yours? It looks like useful way to add media to them. I don't know if it will help much, but it's a thought.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I understand your concern Rob. Things are bound to get a lot more competitive and rates will take a hit. You are going to have to work harder to get new clients than in the past. However, if you are saying that any unskilled noob with a free piece of software will be able to effectively compete with your work product, then I'm afraid you need to raise your game.

Polish up that reel and work hard. If you have the skills and a pedigree then you should be able to weather this. Keep your chin up.

Speaking of reels and resumes, are you tagging yours? It looks like useful way to add media to them. I don't know if it will help much, but it's a thought.

Color correction is maybe 1% of our billings here, but other people do make their principle living off of it - either way, I could not have a lower opinion of BM at this point. I got screwed out of $1000, plain and simple.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Because what I thought was worth $1000 is evidently now worth $0.

Because so many people now have Davinci free - I'd say that mid-level color correction will shortly descend into a minimum-wage job.

I don't think anyone should thank Black Magic, as they simply screwed over their paying customers - they should return their software or sell it on ebay, or maybe even think about a class-action lawsuit to get their wasted $1000 back if they, like me, bought recently.

The guys at Black Magic are off their rockers, and not in a good way like Jim. He REWARDS paying customers.

Driving this business, any aspect of it, down the unpaid gutter is not "democratization" - it is turning professions into hobbies that only the very rich will be able to pursue.

Thats like saying being a "DOP" is a minimum wage job, Since anybody can say that they are a DOP... you do not even need to have a camera usually it's rented for the project at hand. So all you need is a pair of cool looking jeans and a T-shirt... that is very far from the truth, some people get paid very well as photographers, some does not. Same goes for people doing photoshop, some knows what they are doing and they make a bundle retouching, others got the program "of the web" and fiddle some at home... not so much money. The same goes for grading. If you think you can just download the free version watch a tutorial on youtube and then go away and say that you will grade Lord of the rings 5 but for less cash than the other guy, then you will probably be without of luck... You are right that grading is now not a machine investment driven business.. But when you say you pad 1000USD for your copy you also have to have in mind that other people before you bought the same software (earlier versions) for several hundred thousands of USD... So I guess it's the way the world spin.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Thats like saying being a "DOP" is a minimum wage job, Since anybody can say that they are a DOP... you do not even need to have a camera usually it's rented for the project at hand. So all you need is a pair of cool looking jeans and a T-shirt... that is very far from the truth, some people get paid very well as photographers, some does not. Same goes for people doing photoshop, some knows what they are doing and they make a bundle retouching, others got the program "of the web" and fiddle some at home... not so much money. The same goes for grading. If you think you can just download the free version watch a tutorial on youtube and then go away and say that you will grade Lord of the rings 5 but for less cash than the other guy, then you will probably be without of luck... You are right that grading is now not a machine investment driven business.. But when you say you pad 1000USD for your copy you also have to have in mind that other people before you bought the same software (earlier versions) for several hundred thousands of USD... So I guess it's the way the world spin.

I agree - It's all about talent and relationships - of course!

But I do feel BM has now burned paying customers twice - I for one will never give them any more of my money. We were looking at the full DaVinci control surface, but now have cancelled plans to buy it as who knows, maybe next week it will be $500 instead of $35 000, and also because they have left a very sour taste in my mouth, and I don;t want to give them any of my money, out of principle. Their actions have destroyed my and I'm sure many other people's good will toward them, and done great harm to the software development community. If they go bankrupt the reasons will not be hard to figure out.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

It's ironic though. I get the impression that the people that have been complaining most about the pricing of grading and finishing tools, and were cheering, gloating and celebrating the 'end of expensive finishing tools' when BM dropped the price on Resolve, are now the same ones complaining about being on the other side, after having invested US$ 1000 into Resolve...

But it's done, and we'll have to see how the competition deals with this in the future. In the mean time it's probably a good idea to start building your business around technical, artistic and people skills, and less around the scarcity of your equipment.

I've heard similar complaints from Red camera owners that didn't like the amount of Epic-M's being sold because it made their Epic-M less rare, and thus had to lower their expectations on the rental rates...

 

[Rob Ruffo]

It's ironic though. I get the impression that the people that have been complaining most about the pricing of grading and finishing tools, and were cheering, gloating and celebrating the 'end of expensive finishing tools' when BM dropped the price on Resolve, are now the same ones complaining about being on the other side, after having invested US$ 1000 into Resolve...

But it's done, and we'll have to see how the competition deals with this in the future. In the mean time it's probably a good idea to start building your business around technical, artistic and people skills, and less around the scarcity of your equipment.

I've heard similar complaints from Red camera owners that didn't like the amount of Epic-M's being sold because it made their Epic-M less rare, and thus had to lower their expectations on the rental rates...

Our business is built around personal relationships and skills ONLY - most of our clients have not much interest in tech and we feel it is not their problem how we do it, just that we do it and do it well. That is not the point. The point is that screwing your paying customers over is not cool. Black magic has now done this twice, and I for one have no interest in giving a company with such low regard for their paying clients any more of my money. I think everyone should think twice at this point. As an aside, I was not cheering - I felt really bad for the people who had just spent $45 000 for what I was getting for $1000, and I also felt guilty.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Black Magic is taking less of your money. I fail to see why that is a problem.

The value of software is what it enables you to do, not the price tag. DaVinci is more powerful today than it was at $250,000 and now it cost $1000. (We both know it actually costs a lot more, but let's run with it.) That leaves your business with $249,000 more capital to invest in other aspects of your business.

You could hire some very good sales people to go out and pimp your ass for that money. You could add more workstations and hire additional colorists to increase your working capacity... Make up the drop in rates with volume. You could add a lot of luxury into your building to make your clients more comfortable. The list of things you can do with that money is long, so why are you bitching, really? The only thing you have lost is resale value on the workstations you already own, and those frankly should have paid for themselves already if you bought them back when the cost was premium.

I know a car salesman who had complaints like yours several years ago. Car buyers now had easy access to invoice prices via the Internet and wouldn't be gouged. The gold rush was over he thought. The ones who continued to prosper saw the Internet as an opportunity to reach more customers and sell more cars. They found a way to leverage the thing that was troubling them as an asset rather than bitch about it as a hindrance. You could do the same.

 

[Dermot Shane]

two thoughts....

Thought numebr one - budget for an ever reduceing ROI cycle - in 2000 i was vp of a post company and spent 2.5 on a Inferno, two Flames, and two DS's, we looked at 36 month ROI cycle, and made money on the investment back then... today i look at an 8-12 month ROI cycle, i'm now the sole owner of two DS's & three seats of Nuke, when i buy gear it's because it make sense on all levels.

Thought number two - my dad said "It's not what you pay for it, it's what it costs you"
...If you made your 1K investment back in the last year then you enter the new year with software that does what you need, hardware that supports it, and you have been through the growing pains... win/win?
...If you haven't made your 1K invesment back in the last year ( you mentioned only 1% of your billings were color timing last year) then maybe it's time to rethink the ROI, and use your resources elsewhere to greater advantage? Maybe what Resolve really costs you is the reduction of options elsewhere both in time / focus / resources.. there may be a better use of all that? Or maybe you need to focus on creating enough revenue to make the ROI possiable, and then look to grow later, once you have a business model that sustains it's self?

d

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

This entire industry is in a big deflationary spiral which has reduced many costs to entry on many new technologies - I'm just a little puzzled why you're focused on BMD, Rob - I mean, everything is getting cheaper - look what FCP-X did to the cost of entering Avid MC or Premiere.

Price wars are all around us, and everyone gets bit periodically by adopting earlier, rather than later.

Money is made by the impatient, who buy early and make their money back. But the patient ones, who are watching and waiting for their price points, are being rewarded with the savings. You just have to decide your approach to the systemic fluctuations in this marketplace.

 

[Paul Russell]

it's not the cost, it's the talent

 

[Dermot Shane]

Come to think of it.. the biggest loser may well be Baselight...

They threw their development resources into making a plug-in for FCP.. only to see the platform they developed for be trashed just before releasing their software.

Makes sense from a dev viewpoint to port Davinci to w7 i guess after that...

 

[Bing Bailey]

I never understood why people put so much stock in money. isn't its value what it does and not what it costs. does it do less than it did last week. is it still not a valuable tool no matter what the cost. prices change all the time. if a tool is great it doesn't matter if it cost one thing one week or another thing the next. its the combination of what you can do with the tool. it doesn't colour correct/grade for you.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I agree - It's all about talent and relationships - of course!

But I do feel BM has now burned paying customers twice - I for one will never give them any more of my money. We were looking at the full DaVinci control surface, but now have cancelled plans to buy it as who knows, maybe next week it will be $500 instead of $35 000, and also because they have left a very sour taste in my mouth, and I don;t want to give them any of my money, out of principle. Their actions have destroyed my and I'm sure many other people's good will toward them, and done great harm to the software development community. If they go bankrupt the reasons will not be hard to figure out.

Well again that's how the the world spins... The film camera equipment development cycle has been extremely slow until red showed up. Example for how long where the Arri 435 in use? Compare that to the post side of things where you buy an Inferno one year for about 500K USD and then the year after the same company want to sell you a "Flame" that is about 20 times faster for about 200K USD... then a few years after that they announce that the "MAC smoke is out for about 15k USD" and it out preforms the fastest flame for a fraction of the cost... So welcome to the software world.

I think free and low cost is good. The more the better, since I believe in my talent and I work for my money, if it was all about investing then rich people would even more than today run the film industry. Today there are many talented people that has success since talent and great effort makes up for having less money.

 

[M Most]

I've heard similar complaints from Red camera owners that didn't like the amount of Epic-M's being sold because it made their Epic-M less rare, and thus had to lower their expectations on the rental rates...

The various races to the bottom in terms of cost have invited complaints from everyone other than those who can only afford free stuff. When Red showed up, those who were using $200K cameras felt that their hearts had been cut out by a company that was offering a large percentage of the quality at 1/10 the price. Then, just 2 years later, those who had bought Red gear were voicing exactly the same complaints regarding those who were starting to use $1700 DSLR's and claimed to have a good deal of the required quality at, yes, 1/10 the price. I never really thought this would get to the point that it has, where you have almost 100% of the quality and no price at all. And yes, I agree with Rob that this never ending spiral inevitably leads to not only customer disloyalty, but ultimately an inability for anyone to make money in certain ends of the industry. The fact is that it's easy to say it's all about talent, but I've been in this business for quite some time, and I can tell you that it is unavoidable that customers look at the constantly lowering cost of the equipment you use and equate that value with your value. When the equipment is worth less, you're worth less, regardless of how good you are. I don't know very many colorists or editors - or cameramen, for that matter - who today are making what they made 10 years ago, especially when you consider the ever increasing cost of, well, seemingly everything except computers, cameras and post production software. It all seems very exciting to young artists just starting out, but in a fairly short time they're going to be faced with the necessity of making a living. When that happens, it will likely become clear that there are a lot of better ways to do that than working in an industry where the profit is so low and the competition so fierce that companies are forced to give things away, and where that ever decreasing value ultimately translates to ever decreasing pay.

Now, having said all that, I happen to really like Resolve, and I happen to think that the Blackmagic guys have done a great job with it. And I'm likely to keep using it for a number of things going forward. But personally, I really wish the free thing would be taken off the table and allow us to have some fair competition, and allow Blackmagic to make enough money to continue to fund R&D on the software.