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Helium Sensor Smearing

David J. Buchanan

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Is anyone else having sensor smearing issues with the Helium? I know it was a problem with the Dragon, but I've now been noticing weirdness with my Weapon Helium where there is a green band across the screen whenever there is something bright white, that goes to very dark/black color. Sometimes not even in direct light.
 
Having owned my Epic-W for a year, I've only seen smearing once. It happened when I was testing extremely low light stuff at a dinner party at my house. We had some small table-top torches set up for each table so this was a pretty large flame. 1600 ISO v2 (3200 v1), STH OLPF, firmware version 6.4.21.

The two sources you see in frame are the only ones lighting the shot. I found it interesting that the flame showed the smear but the lightbulb in the back which is also clipped doesn't. Perhaps it's a contrast thing, the lightbulb doesn't show it because there's still something to expose for immediately next to it. The flame only has pitch black behind it so it shows the streaking? I dunno.

In my case, it was more blue than green.

27042697149_b737a6dd83_o.jpg


None of the other footage that I have with clipped highlights show the same thing. Maybe tomorrow I'll test and see if I can replicate it.
 
Do you think it may have something to do with the type of source, rather than just the exposure levels? They may be both clipped, but the lightbulb is a single filament encased in a bulb, so it reads as one consistent and continuous source of illumination. But since fire flickers, and puts out light inconsistently, maybe that is having an adverse effect on the hardware or software side of the imaging pipeline?

And this may be out of left field but I thought it was an interesting thought. Since the blue artifact you are talking about is on the edge of the fire, could you be seeing the result of heat exposing the sensor, and not light? Kind of like how you get blue fire instead of red fire if the fire doesn't have enough oxygen? But applied to digital imaging.
 
Oh, no, that blue on the right is fringing from being wide open on a Contax 35mm f/1.4.

Here's it boosted to ISO 5000 so it should be really apparent where the streaking is happening now.

24965164488_abd76f11e8_o.jpg


It's almost like extreme clipping is changing the color of the noise floor.
 
After some testing today I can invoke some smearing with my flashlight when shooting at 3200 ISO and low contrast IPP2. 800 with medium contrast I can barely even make out the smear, and that's with me actively looking for it. It seems very well controlled on my camera.

David, what ISOs are you shooting at where you're seeing this problem?
 
Having owned my Epic-W for a year, I've only seen smearing once. It happened when I was testing extremely low light stuff at a dinner party at my house. We had some small table-top torches set up for each table so this was a pretty large flame. 1600 ISO v2 (3200 v1), STH OLPF, firmware version 6.4.21.

The two sources you see in frame are the only ones lighting the shot. I found it interesting that the flame showed the smear but the lightbulb in the back which is also clipped doesn't. Perhaps it's a contrast thing, the lightbulb doesn't show it because there's still something to expose for immediately next to it. The flame only has pitch black behind it so it shows the streaking? I dunno.

In my case, it was more blue than green.

27042697149_b737a6dd83_o.jpg


None of the other footage that I have with clipped highlights show the same thing. Maybe tomorrow I'll test and see if I can replicate it.

Yes! That's exactly it! And it looks like shit! How come everyone says they've seen it once, or twice, but as I look through my past clips I'm seeing it more often? Really, the thing that bugs me, besides spending $50K on the camera, is that there's no inclination to fix it. It was on the Dragon, now it's on the Helium.
 
no inclination to fix it. It was on the Dragon, now it's on the Helium.

Perhaps you don't remember, but performance significantly improved from Epic Dragon to Weapon.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-Weapon-Test&p=1560005&viewfull=1#post1560005

Whelp, here's the other thing that I can officially classify as useful information. Specifically in regards to comparing RED Epic Dragon to RED Weapon.

I spent the first half of my day at Camtec with Christopher Probst going over our Weapon notes and shooting a few tests. We had 3 Weapons and 2 Epic Dragons on hand.

My focus today was on a specific stress test. CMOS Smearing. Like I said earlier RED Weapon has an improved optical path and some other voodoo that has changed things for the better on this front in a few ways. Here's a sample image:

[URL="http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/cinematography/2015_REDWeaponCameraTest/bigs/phfx_REDWeaponTest2015_CMOSSMEARCompare.jpg"]
[/URL]
A few things to take note of here:
- This is a stress test and I'm doing my best to make an ugly image, the key light in frame is +6 Stops over exposed.
- This example is of the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF, which does indeed exhibit CMOS Smear easier than the other OLPFs due to it's profile/calibration.
- To show the "extremes" this is ISO 4000, DRAGONcolor2/REDgamma4.
- CMOS Smear is indeed significantly improved on RED Weapon compared to RED Epic Dragon.
- IR Blocking and/or Cutting has also been improved.
 
Perhaps you don't remember, but performance significantly improved from Epic Dragon to Weapon.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-Weapon-Test&p=1560005&viewfull=1#post1560005

Welp, the sensor smearing I've encountered doesn't look like that. That barely looks like it's there. Not to mention yours looks horrible, but if you've only seen it once then you're in good graces.

Yes, it is better than the Dragon, but not good enough. It's pretty obvious on the footage that I've been pulling up and now I'm crushing certain parts of my images to get rid of it. It's an annoyance that I don't think should be there in the first place.
 
Not to mention that's at 4000 ISO? Mine is between 800-1600... so it's not like I've been overexposing like mad.

Remember that Helium is now one stop brighter than Dragon. So that 4000 ISO is like 2000 ISO on Helium.

For what it's worth:

ISO 800 v2/1600 v1, IPP2 med/med, standard OLPF
23976977167_8aab2025ce_o.jpg


ISO 6400 v2/12,800 v1, IPP2 med/med, standard OLPF
38811107182_6ec1f92948_o.jpg


I personally am not pushing the Helium sensor any further than 800-1280 for noise reasons anyway. The 6400 ISO image above is already unusable, so it's not like the smearing is ruining an otherwise great shot. So I guess if you shoot in a way to minimize noise you'll also minimize the smearing effects.

Edit: An interesting thing to note in my testing: I had to use my flashlight's dimmest setting to provoke the smearing. If it was on any of the brighter modes, the lens would flare, filling in the nearby shadows and eliminate the effect.
 
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Remember that Helium is now one stop brighter than Dragon. So that 4000 ISO is like 2000 ISO on Helium.

For what it's worth:

ISO 800 v2/1600 v1, IPP2 med/med, standard OLPF
23976977167_8aab2025ce_o.jpg


ISO 6400 v2/12,800 v1, IPP2 med/med, standard OLPF
38811107182_6ec1f92948_o.jpg


I personally am not pushing the Helium sensor any further than 800-1280 for noise reasons anyway. The 6400 ISO image above is already unusable, so it's not like the smearing is ruining an otherwise great shot. So I guess if you shoot in a way to minimize noise you'll also minimize the smearing effects.

Edit: An interesting thing to note in my testing: I had to use my flashlight's dimmest setting to provoke the smearing. If it was on any of the brighter modes, the lens would flare, filling in the nearby shadows and eliminate the effect.

Aaron, these images are with direct light, which yes, will look this terrible and in some/most of my cases would show this bad. However, let's assume I can avoid this (but not really)... It still happens even non-direct light.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_QjuLVUeB7rN9dG1cQGgxcDkbjGM65ri

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10VLb5GqR2rEMUbb16xjkMuHwLq9TKUH_

This is what bothers me.

Doesn't matter if I drop the ISO to 640, still there. Yes, it can be graded down, but what if I didn't want to crush my blacks. Well, now I have to.
 
Hmmmm, that is interesting. The rear dash of the car isn't even clipped but it still bleeds into her hair and his headrest.

Yes! Exactly! It's terrible man... Some have told me just send my camera in... I dunno maybe I should. But I got stuff coming up and I can't be rolling without the Weapon since I've already been filming on it.
 
I've had a look at the file.

So here's the info on sensor smear. It's different and improved on Helium compared to Dragon in general.

However, there's a few things to be aware of. In David's example he is using the newer ISO calibration. So in the example R3D it's rated at ISO 1600 (previously 3200 ISO), though the shot looks to be about right in the ISO 400-640 range when grading to the skin tones.

As the shot is certainly exposed closer to the noise floor it would be "safer" to expose at a lower ISO in this given circumstance. I have yet to see the smear show up in this particular scenario, but the new calibration is pretty new and people will need to adapt to it.

It is something that can be graded out in this case, but I agree it's not ideal. But the true answer here is exposing for a lower ISO given the contrast ratios and light intensities.
 
Aaron,

Yeah the blacks where lifted because I just threw on a little contrast to check to see if a slight grade would hide the smearing, which you can still see. It was a quick grade in Redcine-x. I normally like to add my contrast in Resolve, because I think it gives me more of what i like than in Redcine-X IMHO. I paid no attention to the parade scope at all. Here is a more appropriate black level to this image with a parade scope. I always like to try to properly expose the talent and separate the mids from the blacks and the highs from the mids, I think it gives a more "dynamic" image that way. And, most of the time I never like to either clip or crush any of my channels so I always leave a little "breathing" room in the shadows and not completely crush them.


24973570858_e7d9839625_k.jpg
[/url]more black_1.1.13 by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]


24973571378_d3c89d42fd_b.jpg
[/url]Screenshot (76) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
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